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[myownalias]

It is well known that Williams at that time saw drivers as interchangeable because it was the car that won and not the driver

I don't think that was quite true, Schumacher in the Benetton kept Williams honest in '95.

[Jabberwocky]

I was on about Williams mindset.

[CookinFlat6]

Frank did have a point, Williams were so consistently good at engineering that they were a class apart from everyone else (to be fair even Mclaren for a while till Ron poached his staff and engines) and Frank rather spend the money on the car than the drivers. Thats why they were so innovative, lets face it apart from the last 10 years or so, no other team has done so well in such a short time. They were b!tch slapping Ferrari all over the place with engineering and innovation

But they should have given Damon another year especially after he carried the team after Ayrton went

[Ferrari man 009]

But they should have given Damon another year especially after he carried the team after Ayrton went

I might be wrong, but was the decision to let Hill go not made at the end of 95 after Schumacher thrashed him which was partly down to Hill getting involved in too many incidents. Also Hill wasn't that great in 96 - it took him until the last race to finish off his rookie team mate. Schumacher in a Ferrari that spent half the season breaking down wasn't a million miles behind either.

1994 was Hill's best year in my opinion, but even then he only beat Schumacher in a straight head to head once (Japan). Most of his other wins were when Schumacher was not racing or he was disqualified (oh and Spain, where Schumacher almost beat him despite being in 5th gear for 70% of the race)

[myownalias]

But they should have given Damon another year especially after he carried the team after Ayrton went

I might be wrong, but was the decision to let Hill go not made at the end of 95 after Schumacher thrashed him which was partly down to Hill getting involved in too many incidents. Also Hill wasn't that great in 96 - it took him until the last race to finish off his rookie team mate. Schumacher in a Ferrari that spent half the season breaking down wasn't a million miles behind either.

My understanding is that the decision was taken in the last third of the 1996 season.

[CookinFlat6]

edited for clarity

[CookinFlat6]

But they should have given Damon another year especially after he carried the team after Ayrton went

I might be wrong, but was the decision to let Hill go not made at the end of 95 after Schumacher thrashed him which was partly down to Hill getting involved in too many incidents. Also Hill wasn't that great in 96 - it took him until the last race to finish off his rookie team mate. Schumacher in a Ferrari that spent half the season breaking down wasn't a million miles behind either.

1994 was Hill's best year in my opinion, but even then he only beat Schumacher in a straight head to head once (Japan). Most of his other wins were when Schumacher was not racing or he was disqualified (oh and Spain, where Schumacher almost beat him despite being in 5th gear for 70% of the race)

Yeah well I dont care what Wiki says, Damon was the link to Aryton at the team and he should have stayed on, besides he only dipped in performance due to all the constant criticism for sections of the British press - you wont find that in Wiki
Also you need to remember that Damon was a test driver, he didnt do the karting and other series like MS, probably due to his background (maybe out of respect for his mum), he wasnt in F1 till very late - again looking at Wiki wont give you this context
So he had to evolve into a 'racer' on the job, up against MS. And ofcourse he didnt have traction control on his car and Flabio pulling all kinds of stunts in the background. And ofcourse he didnt actually stoop to driving someone off track to 'trash' him

So you may find a bit more respect for Damon by researching instead of just going by the Wiki numbers

start here http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/halloffame/graham-damon-hill/damon-hills-fall-from-grace-at-williams/

[Ferrari man 009]

Yeah well I dont care what Wiki says, Damon was the link to Aryton at the team and he should have stayed on, besides he only dipped in performance due to all the constant criticism for sections of the British press - you wont find that in Wiki
Also you need to remember that Damon was a test driver, he didnt do the karting and other series like MS, probably due to his background (maybe out of respect for his mum), he wasnt in F1 till very late - again looking at Wiki wont give you this context
So he had to evolve into a 'racer' on the job, up against MS. And ofcourse he didnt have traction control on his car and Flabio pulling all kinds of stunts in the background. And ofcourse he didnt actually stoop to driving someone off track to 'trash' him

Sorry but for someone who goes with the facts this is poor from you. Hill was good, you have to be to be a world champion, but he isn't in the same league as Schumacher, Senna, Alonso, Hamilton, Prost, Mansell etc.

Dip in form blamed on pressure from the British Press - Oh dear, as far as excuses go that is terrible! Yes there is pressure but every Brit who has raced in F1 has had it. And I doubt it is any worse than the pressure any Ferrari driver gets from the Tifosi and the Italian press.

Pre-F1 careers is irrelevant - What is relevant is that Schumacher won 7 World Titles, Hill won 1. FACT

And no, Hill didnt drive anyone off the track, but he blackmailed his team at Spa in 98 telling his team if Ralf Schumacher is allowed to race him for the win after the last safety car he'll put them both in the wall.

Also, lets remember that in Silverstone and Monza 1995 he punted Schumacher off from behind in both races.

[CookinFlat6]

I realise that you are itching to be right about the great MS at the equally great traction control Benneton or the FIA assisted, special tyres, rules veto Ferrari. However you are missing the point here

No one mentioned the relative driving talents of the cheat Schumacher vs Hill, I said Damon was thrust into the position without the qualifications, and carried the team and fans after Senna went, and I felt he should have been kept on as he grew into the role of a racing driver on the job guided by innate talent and beat the cheat Schumacher to become a WDC, and in my opinion should have been given that extra year afterwards as he had matured into a proper racer and would have won the next year if kept on.

I didnt once say he was better or faster or in the same league as the cheat Schumacher

This is how many people fail exams when they have learnt the subject by rote, they are too eager to answer the questions they want instead of the questions actually posed

Anyway the cheat Schumacher has 7 WDCs, Damon has 1, why would anyone argue against (or for) those stats?

Just looking at wiki would tell you who was better, a proven cheat with 7 WDCS or a not DQed 1 x WDC

[Ferrari man 009]

No one mentioned the relative driving talents of the cheat Schumacher, like I said Damon was thrust into the position without the qualifications, and carried the team and fans after Senna went, and I felt he should have been kept on as he grew into the role of a racing driver on job aided by inante talent and beat the cheat Schumacher to become a WDC, and in my opinion should have been given that extra year afterwards as he had matured into a proper racer and would have won the next year if kept on.

And had you done your research you would know the decision was made at the end of 1995, a season where Hill spent more time in the barriers and gravel traps than on the racetrack. The fact he did better in 1996 is irrelevant. Williams had already brought in Frentzen and Villeneuve.

My point is Hill was an ok driver that had a good season or two in a championship winning car. And as for Schumacher being a cheat, you can pretty much label every legendary champion driver a cheat at some point in their career. Even Hamilton has been found guilty of cheating before (and crashing into rival drivers).

[CookinFlat6]

And had you done your research you would know the decision was made at the end of 1995, a season where Hill spent more time in the barriers and gravel traps than on the racetrack. The fact he did better in 1996 is irrelevant. Williams had already brought in Frentzen and Villeneuve.

My point is Hill was an ok driver that had a good season or two in a championship winning car. And as for Schumacher being a cheat, you can pretty much label every legendary champion driver a cheat at some point in their career. Even Hamilton has been found guilty of cheating before (and crashing into rival drivers).

The decision was made during 96 - who cares? my point stands - he should have got an extra year, Harry Heinze could have been parked

Doesnt matter Hill was a good or great driver - he was a rookie who took over at Williams and evolved as rookies do whilst taking the fight to the cheat Schumacher

And as for Schumacher being a cheat, you can pretty much label every legendary champion driver a cheat at some point in their career. Even Hamilton has been found guilty of cheating before (and crashing into rival drivers).

They were DQed were they? DQ means you are removed from the competition entirely because you felt it neccesary to knowingly break the rules that civilised people go by. Its like been put in prison for not being able to hang out amongst normal law abiding decent people who might make mistakes without meaning to

You really think getting DQed from an entire season is something that happens a lot? and is actually comparable to MISDEAMEANOURS - what planet are you on??

If I hit you by mistake on the playing field I get a sanction or a penalty, if I hit you intentionally to influence the out come of the game I am CHEATING

Every legendary driver blahblahblah - go on Wiki and find out how many drivers get PENALTIES and how many get DQed

Ferrari supporters know so little about F1 that they believe every driver is a cheat

[racechick]

Yeah well I dont care what Wiki says, Damon was the link to Aryton at the team and he should have stayed on, besides he only dipped in performance due to all the constant criticism for sections of the British press - you wont find that in Wiki
Also you need to remember that Damon was a test driver, he didnt do the karting and other series like MS, probably due to his background (maybe out of respect for his mum), he wasnt in F1 till very late - again looking at Wiki wont give you this context
So he had to evolve into a 'racer' on the job, up against MS. And ofcourse he didnt have traction control on his car and Flabio pulling all kinds of stunts in the background. And ofcourse he didnt actually stoop to driving someone off track to 'trash' him

Sorry but for someone who goes with the facts this is poor from you. Hill was good, you have to be to be a world champion, but he isn't in the same league as Schumacher, Senna, Alonso, Hamilton, Prost, Mansell etc.

Dip in form blamed on pressure from the British Press - Oh dear, as far as excuses go that is terrible! Yes there is pressure but every Brit who has raced in F1 has had it. And I doubt it is any worse than the pressure any Ferrari driver gets from the Tifosi and the Italian press.

Pre-F1 careers is irrelevant - What is relevant is that Schumacher won 7 World Titles, Hill won 1. FACT

And no, Hill didnt drive anyone off the track, but he blackmailed his team at Spa in 98 telling his team if Ralf Schumacher is allowed to race him for the win after the last safety car he'll put them both in the wall.

Also, lets remember that in Silverstone and Monza 1995 he punted Schumacher off from behind in both races.

That's not quite what Damon said at Spa. He'd been well ahead of Ralph, something like 25 sec I think, and a safety car came out putting them right close for the closing laps and it was raining. Damon said to the team if I have to race him I will but you risk an accident. There were only eight laps left. It was Jordan's decision. Ralph was told not to risk an overtake and Jordan scored their first win and it was a one two finish.

You are right that Damon wasn't quite that extra special driver that comes along once in a while, but he was better than he's often given credit for. Maybe if he'd started from an early age he would have been one if those special drivers. He used to race motorbikes, possibly a decision he made to not follow his father into car racing. He used to be a dispatch rider in London. He had to fund all his racing and would often ride down to the race circuit, pitch his tent and then race in an event. He was in his twenties when he began to feel an interest in cars and his mum paid for him to go on a racing driver course in France. And that's where it started. So he was a very late starter and was competing against Schumacher who'd been driving since he was five.

[CookinFlat6]

I dont think thats in Wiki RC, it may not compute

[Ferrari man 009]

And as for Schumacher being a cheat, you can pretty much label every legendary champion driver a cheat at some point in their career. Even Hamilton has been found guilty of cheating before (and crashing into rival drivers).

They were DQed were they? DQ means you are removed from the competition entirely because you felt it neccesary to knowingly break the rules that civilised people go by. Its like been put in prison for not being able to hang out amongst normal law abiding decent people who might make mistakes without meaning to

So, can you not put Prost 1989, Senna 1990 into the same category? They both knowingly took out their rivals. Senna even admitted to it after the event.

In fact, if we are going by your theory then Hamilton is a cheat, since he knowingly LIED to the stewards to gain a position in the 2009 Australian GP and was subsequently DISQUALIFIED.

In my opinion, NONE of the above are cheats. They are all very competitive sports people that occasionally bend the rules too far in the aim of gaining every possible advantage.

[Ferrari man 009]

Yeah well I dont care what Wiki says, Damon was the link to Aryton at the team and he should have stayed on, besides he only dipped in performance due to all the constant criticism for sections of the British press - you wont find that in Wiki
Also you need to remember that Damon was a test driver, he didnt do the karting and other series like MS, probably due to his background (maybe out of respect for his mum), he wasnt in F1 till very late - again looking at Wiki wont give you this context
So he had to evolve into a 'racer' on the job, up against MS. And ofcourse he didnt have traction control on his car and Flabio pulling all kinds of stunts in the background. And ofcourse he didnt actually stoop to driving someone off track to 'trash' him

Sorry but for someone who goes with the facts this is poor from you. Hill was good, you have to be to be a world champion, but he isn't in the same league as Schumacher, Senna, Alonso, Hamilton, Prost, Mansell etc.

Dip in form blamed on pressure from the British Press - Oh dear, as far as excuses go that is terrible! Yes there is pressure but every Brit who has raced in F1 has had it. And I doubt it is any worse than the pressure any Ferrari driver gets from the Tifosi and the Italian press.

Pre-F1 careers is irrelevant - What is relevant is that Schumacher won 7 World Titles, Hill won 1. FACT

And no, Hill didnt drive anyone off the track, but he blackmailed his team at Spa in 98 telling his team if Ralf Schumacher is allowed to race him for the win after the last safety car he'll put them both in the wall.

Also, lets remember that in Silverstone and Monza 1995 he punted Schumacher off from behind in both races.

That's not quite what Damon said at Spa. He'd been well ahead of Ralph, something like 25 sec I think, and a safety car came out putting them right close for the closing laps and it was raining. Damon said to the team if I have to race him I will but you risk an accident. There were only eight laps left. It was Jordan's decision. Ralph was told not to risk an overtake and Jordan scored their first win and it was a one two finish.

Oh right, I thought Eddie Jordan said that Damon threatened to take Ralf off if he tried to pass. Maybe EJ mis-interpreted the radio message. But as I say Hill was a good driver that made good use of being in a title winning car at the right time. In the same way that Irvine almost took advantage of being a good driver who ended up as number 1 in a Title challenging Ferrari in 99.


And Cookinflat, read the article you posted. The decision was made in 95 and a contract with Frentzen was signed at the end of 95 for 97. Villenuve was already signed so Hill was alreafy heading out.