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[Jabberwocky]

Well. We have had it for a few races now and tbh has it really made any difference to the show? It has just become another difficult "offside" rule to try and explain to newcomers to the sport

[LRW]

Godabe! What a dark horse you are!!

Well not really. Not if you remember what my standard Avatar is...

[sagi58]

Mercedes don't have an exclusive veto. They're just excercising their right to keep things as were agreed. Now if you want to talk veto, ferrari do have one. I believe you've said that's ok though, because Ferrari are 'special' .
Ferrari are special needs alright! And are about to appoint a TP to make damn sure those special needs are met.

I did not say that it's OK, that Ferrari have a veto,
What I have said is that it's very limited. However,
I now can add that the veto doesn't include stopping
teams from developing their cars in-season in order
to keep the status quo.

That last statement is pure speculation and as such
doesn't merit a response. Oh, wait, I did respond!

So it wasn't you that voted for option four in this poll then? I'd assumed it was. But you know what they say about assumptions don't you

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=13368

Actually, that would be one of YOUR biggest assumptions!
But, you probably weren't alone!

[sagi58]

Majority should rule, except when they rule to give the 90 million Ferrari get just for being the red car, spread out to the bottom teams so they can better compete.

No argument from me when it comes to spreading the wealth.
But, remember, that's not the only reason bottom teams are
finding it difficult to compete.

There is the "little" fact that they were "forced" into using the
more costly hybrid engines, by manufacturers who just wanted
to showcase their technology.

Really? You mean to tell me that Renault wanted a change and got a change and now is not happy with the change and wants to change the change? And they cost the most. If a team can't make a decent engine I say they shouldn't be in the sport.

The word "forced" was not chosen by me, that's how Lotus, Force India
and Williams described their position to Ecclestone in that leaked letter.

[What's Burning?]

Majority should rule, except when they rule to give the 90 million Ferrari get just for being the red car, spread out to the bottom teams so they can better compete.

No argument from me when it comes to spreading the wealth.
But, remember, that's not the only reason bottom teams are
finding it difficult to compete.

There is the "little" fact that they were "forced" into using the
more costly hybrid engines, by manufacturers who just wanted
to showcase their technology.

Really? You mean to tell me that Renault wanted a change and got a change and now is not happy with the change and wants to change the change? And they cost the most. If a team can't make a decent engine I say they shouldn't be in the sport.

The word "forced" was not chosen by me, that's how Lotus, Force India
and Williams described their position to Ecclestone in that leaked letter.

Really? Are you even sure what it is you're arguing? They don't even make engines.

[sagi58]

Majority should rule, except when they rule to give the 90 million Ferrari get just for being the red car, spread out to the bottom teams so they can better compete.

No argument from me when it comes to spreading the wealth.
But, remember, that's not the only reason bottom teams are
finding it difficult to compete.

There is the "little" fact that they were "forced" into using the
more costly hybrid engines, by manufacturers who just wanted
to showcase their technology.

Really? You mean to tell me that Renault wanted a change and got a change and now is not happy with the change and wants to change the change? And they cost the most. If a team can't make a decent engine I say they shouldn't be in the sport.

The word "forced" was not chosen by me, that's how Lotus, Force India
and Williams described their position to Ecclestone in that leaked letter.

Really? Are you even sure what it is you're arguing? They don't even make engines.

Thanks for the update!! They are "forced" to BUY the engines at an increase in cost that is driving them out of F1.

[overboost]

Majority should rule, except when they rule to give the 90 million Ferrari get just for being the red car, spread out to the bottom teams so they can better compete.

The bottom teams were doing fine until they were hit with $15M+ in 2014 for additional costs for the new engines. Why should Ferrari on their own have to pay to clean up that mess? That's an FIA/CVC/Ecclestone problem. CVC has made $8.2 Billion on F1 since 2006!

The bottom teams were doing fine? You poor Tifoso. It's been so rough.

Yes fine as in these teams were able to race cars in Formula 1. Now the two weakest are gone and 2 or 3 others are now buckling due to the exorbitant engine costs.

[Hammer278]

Majority should rule, except when they rule to give the 90 million Ferrari get just for being the red car, spread out to the bottom teams so they can better compete.

The bottom teams were doing fine until they were hit with $15M+ in 2014 for additional costs for the new engines. Why should Ferrari on their own have to pay to clean up that mess? That's an FIA/CVC/Ecclestone problem. CVC has made $8.2 Billion on F1 since 2006!

The bottom teams were doing fine? You poor Tifoso. It's been so rough.

Yes fine as in these teams were able to race cars in Formula 1. Now the two weakest are gone and 2 or 3 others are now buckling due to the exorbitant engine costs.

It's called evolution of the sport. EVERYONE agreed to the changes, and if a few teams did not do their accounting properly it doesn't make it the fault of the winners. The world is about survival of the fittest. IF the 2-3 teams which are buckling, indeed buckle and leave, we can have 3 car teams which will make up for their loss. And maybe by then, the crap engine manufacturers might have learned how to make engines and introduce those improvements from 2017 or what not, whenever the freeze is lifted. Excuses are for losers, and I want to watch a sport filled with winners, whiners and moaners are welcome to leave. A field sporting 10 Mercedes engines and 10 Honda engines is still fine by me if it comes to that. I want to see the best teams/drivers in action and if only 2 engine manufacturers can cut it, all power to them in their advertizing/marketing ventures.

[overboost]

Majority should rule, except when they rule to give the 90 million Ferrari get just for being the red car, spread out to the bottom teams so they can better compete.

The bottom teams were doing fine until they were hit with $15M+ in 2014 for additional costs for the new engines. Why should Ferrari on their own have to pay to clean up that mess? That's an FIA/CVC/Ecclestone problem. CVC has made $8.2 Billion on F1 since 2006!

The bottom teams were doing fine? You poor Tifoso. It's been so rough.

Yes fine as in these teams were able to race cars in Formula 1. Now the two weakest are gone and 2 or 3 others are now buckling due to the exorbitant engine costs.

It's called evolution of the sport. EVERYONE agreed to the changes, and if a few teams did not do their accounting properly it doesn't make it the fault of the winners. The world is about survival of the fittest. IF the 2-3 teams which are buckling, indeed buckle and leave, we can have 3 car teams which will make up for their loss. And maybe by then, the crap engine manufacturers might have learned how to make engines and introduce those improvements from 2017 or what not, whenever the freeze is lifted. Excuses are for losers, and I want to watch a sport filled with winners, whiners and moaners are welcome to leave. A field sporting 10 Mercedes engines and 10 Honda engines is still fine by me if it comes to that. I want to see the best teams/drivers in action and if only 2 engine manufacturers can cut it, all power to them in their advertizing/marketing ventures.

The better word to describe the situation is extinction. Certainly though it is true that evolution can lead to extinction if that is what you meant.

And how is any of what you say in your post going to reduce the cost of the engines to an affordable level? Right now these engines have introduced a huge additional cost of $15-20M perhaps more into the teams operating budget who were just getting by. These teams on the lower end can't afford these Mercedes or Honda engines!!

So your solution is to change F1 fundamentally and have 3 car teams just so we can have these over priced and over complicated engines?? Another here suggested that Ferrari should have to pay the teams so they can buy engines?? Ridiculous solutions borne from those with Mercedes biases when the obvious is to just reduce the complexity of the engine formula and drive the costs out. Prevent the extinction.

[LRW]

why have you only NOW started to bitch about the engines?

[CookinFlat6]

The point the deluded h8rz are missing when jumping on the latest Horner bandwagon of changing back to cheaper engines - is that the cost of the engines come down massively over time, its always at the start that they are most expensive. The V8s were cheap as chips because they had been evolved with cheaper more reliable parts as per the ternms of the 10 year freeze.

Mercs Hybrid will be come cheaper and cheaper once they stop developing for performance and only for reliability

Yet the h8rz now want to scrap the Hybrid as it is too expensive', even though the bulk of the expense has been sunk and the customers have paid for the implementation and change - the biggest costs over the V8s, and now that the Merc customers have the best and cheapest engine, that will get progressively cheaper, they are expected to change back to a new engine type and pay to implement its changes and then start waiting for them to get cheaper as the freeze goes on?

But hold on, the h8rz also want unlimited development on the engines, unlimited upgrades, unlimited implementation costs for customers thru each season, otherwise competition is stiffled - so they want to spend more on engines one minute, then when that doesnt work they want to spend less, by spending more???

They need to listen to Horner more carefully to understand what he is saying before regurgitating it with a touch of 'passion' thrown in the mix

Some of them are still using his arguments to discuss changing the 2014 regs to make things fairer

[myownalias]

why have you only NOW started to bitch about the engines?

Because it is the off season, it's par for the course, expect more randomness over the next four months!

But on the subject of engines, I don't think that is why we have lost Caterham and Marussia, they were never given a fighting chance, both teams along with USF1 and Hispania were lured into the sport by a 45m Euro budget cap which never materialized. The new engine specification and added cost didn't help, but the lack of budget cap forthcoming is what ultimately killed those teams, spending more than they can afford just to hold onto the midfield pack with declining sponsorship.

But the new engine formula is an odd one; why change engine formula when it increases costs significantly which it flies in the face of the trend of cost cutting.

[racechick]

So we've lost two teams and three more are on the cusp ,because ( according to OB) of the 10 to 15 mil extra teams are paying for engines.

Firstly, it's less if you buy a mercedes engine...and it goes faster.

Secondly. If Ferrari shared out the 90 mil they get for being Ferrari , amongst these five struggling teams, to pay that extra engine money , they'd STILL have some change left for themselves for being Ferrari!!

[sagi58]

...If Ferrari shared out the 90 mil they get for being Ferrari , amongst these five struggling teams, to pay that extra engine money , they'd STILL have some change left for themselves for being Ferrari!!

By that same token, since Mercedes is just so altruistic, do you believe they will take into account
their estimated $156m of the 2014 prize money to give their own customers more of a break?

Especially considering Mercedes will get about 195% of what Force India is estimated to receive
and about 165% of what the estimate for Williams is. Since Honda will be supplying McLaren
next year, there is no point factoring into the mix the estimated 150% more Mercedes will get.

[Hammer278]

...If Ferrari shared out the 90 mil they get for being Ferrari , amongst these five struggling teams, to pay that extra engine money , they'd STILL have some change left for themselves for being Ferrari!!

By that same token, since Mercedes is just so altruistic, do you believe they will take into account
their estimated $156m of the 2014 prize money to give their own customers more of a break?

Especially considering Mercedes will get about 195% of what Force India is estimated to receive
and about 165% of what the estimate for Williams is. Since Honda will be supplying McLaren
next year, there is no point factoring into the mix the estimated 150% more Mercedes will get.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLL

In Mialala land, Mercedes should give back some prize winnings after all their hard work to develop the best car in the field.

Meanwhile, its okay for Ferrari to just turn up and get extra money which they should keep.



If Sagi were President of USA....