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[CookinFlat6]

This a lovely potted history of Hamilton's normality but I've only been talking about the last few races. Before that he has had moments of brain fade, which he's admitted to. Unless you accept he's had his moments you can't have a fair view of the man.

I never mentioned anybody else on the grid. Did I say Lewis is a nutter and everybody else is a perfectly balanced individual? Because it's like you're replying to ghost posts. Don't rake me over the coals for everbody elses sins.


Yes, what's your point though? I agree with it all, even though it has the selective whiff of pro-Hamilton spin. I'm not out to knock him, but question why he's let and is letting these errors slip into his game again.

I'm trying to discuss specific points that anyone can put in an arguement against. I'm trying to get to the crux of it. What I'm getting is his sterling life story, and excuses like sometimes drivers just mess up quali. It's cause and effect, but people are arguing the effect like it's the cause.

I was responding specifically to your claim of a cognitive issue since Monaco that is a big problem he appears unable to resolve - 'because he has a history of cognitive issues'
You said his misfortune in the past could now be attributed to this cognitive issue

This is what I responded to, but at the same time I was clear about a general attitude from 'certain quarters out there'. To be fair, I dont count you as one of those quarters as you have always offered your own original and obviously thought about opinions. So I responded to a specific opinion you presented, which I beleive to be firmly and completely wrong (although I can see where you are coming from - ill come back to that in a mo) but was more aiming the whole rant at the random potshot brigade.

Lewis has brain fades? More than any other driver? do you want to argue that based on empiricals? If so i will point to how many mistakes Senna made in his rookie year, how many crashes and offs, compared to Lewis' 5 podiums etc.
Brain fades? - as a rookie Lewis driove into the back of Kimi in the pit lane - his team should have remebered he was a rookie, oh guess who also crashed the same way? Nico Rosberg
What about David Coulthard crashing on the parade lap - he wasnt even a rookie
Drove into wrong pit box? so did Button
I am trying to think of more brain fades that are unique to Lewis and mark him as special amongst rookies or drivers with a couple years experience, maybe you can supply some

Why is Lewis letting these errors back into his game? What errors are those? Ah the quali in Canada and Austria - sandbagging - he is faster than Nico and realises Nico is gaining from his data and so he tries something. If he didnt try we would say he wasnt very smart.
Which driver with a super fast teammate doesnt make mistakes pushing for that extra tenth? Senna? We dont know about MS, Seb, Alonso because they never had competityion from the other guy in the team

You didnt say Lewis is a nutter but you said he has cognitive issue, you have not said this about anyone else

Finally - yes Lewis seems to always be involved in a drama, or bad luck etc etc, its never straight forward with him. Coyuld this be seklf induced because of this cognitive 'issue' you have identified? There might be a little foundation in that, that is similar to Senna and other highly passionate and emotionally free stars they do things the hard way.
If we compare the German and english footbal teams taking penalties we always see the germans boringly focussed and machine like grinding out results, with The English left arguing about if the ball crossed the line or not
And Nico has got the germany 'first to get towel down' mantality as well as the finnish speed so it could be what you ar seeingas opposed to Lewis brain fades ruining his luck - because Nico makes more mistakes and seem to get away with it (so far)
Anyway its all good, because Lewis knows he has to continue to be faster yet tighten up on the areas a less talented but machine like german could benefit from the more talented guy who drives his heart out

[What's Burning?]

A percentage of the proceeds will go to Jenson’s preferred charity, the Henry Surtees Foundation

straight from their website, wording with a distinct piquant air of fecal matter.

[CookinFlat6]

Maybe its to celebrate Jensons final Silverstone F1 race

[Ferrari man 009]

Roth, he's made one error. That's why people are taking issue with what you say. You say "he's letting these errors slip into his game again." Non of them are perfect, some less perfect than others and yet the expectation is always that Hamilton has to be perfect. And when he makes an error suddenly he's psychologically weak or error prone. To pick it out suggests that you consider him more error prone than others. And yet he's made only one error in almost half a season. Compare that to other world champions on the grid. (I know. Hamilton is In a fast car, but I'm talking about comparative performance against a team mate)
Kimi, blown away.
Jenson, not looking good against a rookie
Vettel, blown away.
And yet Hamilton is the one singled out for ' letting errors slip into his game ' or being psychologically weak.
Error at Austria or no error at Austria he would be away down the street without the DNF's.

Hamilton has had a good season and if you look at victories he is 4-3 up, which includes the bad luck he had at Monaco (im sure Rosberg didnt deliberately mess up but it was still unfortunate on Hamilton) and had he finished both races he would be leading the championship even if he followed Rosberg home at both races (2nd in Australia, 3rd in Canada would be another 33 points). The other problem Lewis has is unless Rosberg DNF's he can just follow Lewis home in the next 4 races and still lead the championship which means he can be more conservative with engines, brakes etc whereas Hamilton has to go for the win. 2nd to Rosberg is no good now.

That said, I honestly don't think there is much in it between the two of them. Both are very fast racers otherwise they wouldn't be in the Mercedes team. Hamilton has the edge for me but it isnt by a lot.

I also agree with the comment about former WDC's. The only one of the 4 you could say is doing a champions job of getting the best from a poor/average car is Alonso. And that for me is why he is in a different class to Button, Vettel and Raikkonen who are quick when everything suits them but when the going gets tough they arent there. Hamilton is the other one that has proved he can get the best out of an average car (2009). For this reason I believe the great drivers of this era are Hamilton and Alonso, with Raikkonen, Button and Vettel being in the "very good but not great" category (similar to Hakkinen/Villeneuve - excellent in the best car, not great otherwise).

Look at it this way - Fangio (56,57), Schumacher (1994 and, arguably 2003), Senna (1991), Alonso (2005), Hamilton (2008) and Prost (1986) have all won World Championships when they haven't had the fastest car on the grid.

Vettel, Raikkonen, Button, Hakkinen, Villeneuve, Hill etc while very good drivers have only won championships when they have had the best car and been average when they haven't had the best car. And that for me is why I rate the drivers above in a different class to them. Had Vettel dragged his car to consistent 3rds and 4ths like Alonso has done this year i'd have put him up there with the top drivers but the fact he has been outdriven so badly by Ricciardo (Webber threw away the 2010 title (in my opinion) and when the RBR wasnt the best in early-2012 he was also outraced by Webber) indicates to me he isn't a great driver. He is very good, but not a great.

[Roth]

Roth, he's made one error. That's why people are taking issue with what you say. You say "he's letting these errors slip into his game again." Non of them are perfect, some less perfect than others and yet the expectation is always that Hamilton has to be perfect. And when he makes an error suddenly he's psychologically weak or error prone. To pick it out suggests that you consider him more error prone than others. And yet he's made only one error in almost half a season. Compare that to other world champions on the grid. (I know. Hamilton is In a fast car, but I'm talking about comparative performance against a team mate)
Kimi, blown away.
Jenson, not looking good against a rookie
Vettel, blown away.
And yet Hamilton is the one singled out for ' letting errors slip into his game ' or being psychologically weak.
Error at Austria or no error at Austria he would be away down the street without the DNF's.

I'm not talking about other drivers. Why are they being brought up all the time? This discussion stemmed from me talking about his and Nico's respective chances in England. That's not singling out, it's staying on topic.

He hasn't made one error. He's made four in the last two Q3s. Marginally in Canada, moreso in Austria. Every time he's gone for his fastest run he's ruined it somehow.

Canada was a bad sector. Austria he crossed that line, and didn't use all the time he had left to get in a proper banker, then spun. He had three and a half minutes on the clock after the first mistake but sat in the pits for two of those then went out.

His motivation seems to have gone from winning to beating Nico. It's a subtle shift, but it indicates his attention has turned slightly. I'm not saying he's a nutcase or emotional blancmange, but since the end of his rookie season he's never had that consistency that almost took him to the title.

And I've covered the whole DNF thing before. Let's not keep making this an ifs and buts arguement.

[Roth]

This a lovely potted history of Hamilton's normality but I've only been talking about the last few races. Before that he has had moments of brain fade, which he's admitted to. Unless you accept he's had his moments you can't have a fair view of the man.

I never mentioned anybody else on the grid. Did I say Lewis is a nutter and everybody else is a perfectly balanced individual? Because it's like you're replying to ghost posts. Don't rake me over the coals for everbody elses sins.


Yes, what's your point though? I agree with it all, even though it has the selective whiff of pro-Hamilton spin. I'm not out to knock him, but question why he's let and is letting these errors slip into his game again.

I'm trying to discuss specific points that anyone can put in an arguement against. I'm trying to get to the crux of it. What I'm getting is his sterling life story, and excuses like sometimes drivers just mess up quali. It's cause and effect, but people are arguing the effect like it's the cause.

I was responding specifically to your claim of a cognitive issue since Monaco that is a big problem he appears unable to resolve - 'because he has a history of cognitive issues'
You said his misfortune in the past could now be attributed to this cognitive issue

This is what I responded to, but at the same time I was clear about a general attitude from 'certain quarters out there'. To be fair, I dont count you as one of those quarters as you have always offered your own original and obviously thought about opinions. So I responded to a specific opinion you presented, which I beleive to be firmly and completely wrong (although I can see where you are coming from - ill come back to that in a mo) but was more aiming the whole rant at the random potshot brigade.

Lewis has brain fades? More than any other driver? do you want to argue that based on empiricals? If so i will point to how many mistakes Senna made in his rookie year, how many crashes and offs, compared to Lewis' 5 podiums etc.
Brain fades? - as a rookie Lewis driove into the back of Kimi in the pit lane - his team should have remebered he was a rookie, oh guess who also crashed the same way? Nico Rosberg
What about David Coulthard crashing on the parade lap - he wasnt even a rookie
Drove into wrong pit box? so did Button
I am trying to think of more brain fades that are unique to Lewis and mark him as special amongst rookies or drivers with a couple years experience, maybe you can supply some

Why is Lewis letting these errors back into his game? What errors are those? Ah the quali in Canada and Austria - sandbagging - he is faster than Nico and realises Nico is gaining from his data and so he tries something. If he didnt try we would say he wasnt very smart.
Which driver with a super fast teammate doesnt make mistakes pushing for that extra tenth? Senna? We dont know about MS, Seb, Alonso because they never had competityion from the other guy in the team

You didnt say Lewis is a nutter but you said he has cognitive issue, you have not said this about anyone else

Finally - yes Lewis seems to always be involved in a drama, or bad luck etc etc, its never straight forward with him. Coyuld this be seklf induced because of this cognitive 'issue' you have identified? There might be a little foundation in that, that is similar to Senna and other highly passionate and emotionally free stars they do things the hard way.
If we compare the German and english footbal teams taking penalties we always see the germans boringly focussed and machine like grinding out results, with The English left arguing about if the ball crossed the line or not
And Nico has got the germany 'first to get towel down' mantality as well as the finnish speed so it could be what you ar seeingas opposed to Lewis brain fades ruining his luck - because Nico makes more mistakes and seem to get away with it (so far)
Anyway its all good, because Lewis knows he has to continue to be faster yet tighten up on the areas a less talented but machine like german could benefit from the more talented guy who drives his heart out

I bring up the cognitive issues or whatever we're calling it because he's the fastest driver in the fastest car. It's not skill that's letting him down. And I'm not saying it's at the forefront of his mind but esp since Monaco, his first race in the championship lead, brown stuff seems to have got real very quickly. The pure fun, the Bahrain fun, of being in that Merc wore off and reality set in. He brings up their relative backgrounds, he reacts poorly to Nico's stunt, his general attitude changes. Now if you're an open and honest guy this is more difficult than if you're happy to be a little calculating and underhand. It's not a natural thought process, he ponders too hard on why people pull these stunts, so takes up more of his energy and focus than if he strutted around the pits sweeping back his locks. And yes this is just me guessing but it seems a reasonable explanantion to me. You know what it's like at work. Half the time it's not about the job but the politics.

And I would say Nico has instigated the drifting apart, but to what lengths it's calculated i don't know. But he knows Hamilton well enough how to push his buttons. He's frustrating the crap out of him. And those German traits you mentioned aren't far off the mark. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of sentimentality in there. It's efficiency all the way. Yes, he makes mistakes, and been lucky but that's only part of the story. That's just the part that isn't quite at Hamilton's level.

[Roth]

The point would have some validity if he was deficient in some way and it was a diminishing return tactic.

I don't follow.

I mean if he'd been doing this for five or six attemps and it had backfired on him all those times. We're looking at two muckups, one where it was a mistake clearly on his part, and one where he didn't even get a chance to prove that not getting a pole didn't even matter as passing wasn't an issue in Canada, a circuit Lewis owns. Monaco he had no control over so its 1 out of three attempts. Hardly something I'd base such a strong philosophical argument on. Not saying you're wrong, not saying there isn't some truth to it, it's just IMO not enough of a "sampling" to make a supposition on as you are doing.

I don't know why but it's taken me ages to find this reply.

What I don't understand with the sandbagging is if you've been faster sharing telemetry, doing your own thing, why stop. He had 4 wins on the bounce. Now he's playing games and messing up.

I mentioned earlier this might be just a blip, but if it continues then it's not. A little more bad luck for Nico and a little extra good luck for Hamilton and we're back on track. I think Monaco was double edged, spurred Nico on, got Hamilton defensive. I'm hoping the Britsh GP brings out the best in Hamilton, focused on the race.

[racechick]

Roth, he's made one error. That's why people are taking issue with what you say. You say "he's letting these errors slip into his game again." Non of them are perfect, some less perfect than others and yet the expectation is always that Hamilton has to be perfect. And when he makes an error suddenly he's psychologically weak or error prone. To pick it out suggests that you consider him more error prone than others. And yet he's made only one error in almost half a season. Compare that to other world champions on the grid. (I know. Hamilton is In a fast car, but I'm talking about comparative performance against a team mate)
Kimi, blown away.
Jenson, not looking good against a rookie
Vettel, blown away.
And yet Hamilton is the one singled out for ' letting errors slip into his game ' or being psychologically weak.
Error at Austria or no error at Austria he would be away down the street without the DNF's.

Hamilton has had a good season and if you look at victories he is 4-3 up, which includes the bad luck he had at Monaco (im sure Rosberg didnt deliberately mess up but it was still unfortunate on Hamilton) and had he finished both races he would be leading the championship even if he followed Rosberg home at both races (2nd in Australia, 3rd in Canada would be another 33 points). The other problem Lewis has is unless Rosberg DNF's he can just follow Lewis home in the next 4 races and still lead the championship which means he can be more conservative with engines, brakes etc whereas Hamilton has to go for the win. 2nd to Rosberg is no good now.

That said, I honestly don't think there is much in it between the two of them. Both are very fast racers otherwise they wouldn't be in the Mercedes team. Hamilton has the edge for me but it isnt by a lot.

I also agree with the comment about former WDC's. The only one of the 4 you could say is doing a champions job of getting the best from a poor/average car is Alonso. And that for me is why he is in a different class to Button, Vettel and Raikkonen who are quick when everything suits them but when the going gets tough they arent there. Hamilton is the other one that has proved he can get the best out of an average car (2009). For this reason I believe the great drivers of this era are Hamilton and Alonso, with Raikkonen, Button and Vettel being in the "very good but not great" category (similar to Hakkinen/Villeneuve - excellent in the best car, not great otherwise).

Look at it this way - Fangio (56,57), Schumacher (1994 and, arguably 2003), Senna (1991), Alonso (2005), Hamilton (2008) and Prost (1986) have all won World Championships when they haven't had the fastest car on the grid.

Vettel, Raikkonen, Button, Hakkinen, Villeneuve, Hill etc while very good drivers have only won championships when they have had the best car and been average when they haven't had the best car. And that for me is why I rate the drivers above in a different class to them. Had Vettel dragged his car to consistent 3rds and 4ths like Alonso has done this year i'd have put him up there with the top drivers but the fact he has been outdriven so badly by Ricciardo (Webber threw away the 2010 title (in my opinion) and when the RBR wasnt the best in early-2012 he was also outraced by Webber) indicates to me he isn't a great driver. He is very good, but not a great.

I pretty much agree with what you've said there. For me it's always been Alonso and Hamilton above the rest even when Vettel was hailed as a legend, when the blown diffuser was removed he was barely as quick as Webber, in fact often slower and he's now slower than Dan.

Hamilton has had a good season, the last two races being the exception.

Roth if you are saying the two runs in Austria q3 count as two errors, then yes it's more than one error. I was counting q3 Austria as an errored session. Canada he was less than his usual perfect but I don't class that as an error, he was 700ths slower than a fast team mate from who he was trying to hide his data. Still can't see how he's lost the plot or gone doolally ( or any other term for head issues)

Another point to possibly consider is the fact that Lewis gains his advantage ( always has) by late braking and using his natural instinct and reactions to deal with the consequences. The Merc is fragile under braking and is having to nurse the brakes somewhat , which will hinder Lewis. He has to find other ways, which he is doing, but whatever he tries is open for Rosberg to copy. Trying new things and trying to keep them hidden can't be easy. And Rosberg is a very fast learner.

[LiamCatterson]

Just having a curious look at the weather...

Rhain

Might make for an exciting race though!

WHAT ABOUT MY CAMP? THAT HAS TO BE MUDDY AGAIN

[stonemonkey]

Hope the Silverstone weather is better than at Glastonbury, the BBC subtitles told festival goers to be prepared for ****

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... under.html

[geetface9]

[Ferrari man 009]

Hope the Silverstone weather is better than at Glastonbury, the BBC subtitles told festival goers to be prepared for ****

Doesn't look good

[What's Burning?]

We haven't had a wet race in a while. This could spice up the WDC race indeed and make the fantasy pool game very interesting.

[Jabberwocky]

Weather warnings over this weekend in oxfirdshire

Sent using NCC-1701

[cheekybru]

Omg 6 days to go wel be therr in our ghost outfits with our lewis flag http://www.mediafire.com/view/82h2lhk4240za64/brusamolympics.jpg cant frickin wait

*edit - I still dont get how to post pics