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#419614

Vettel's proved everything he has to at Red Bull. I'm sure he'd have loved to stay at Red Bull for another year. This is like Hamilton and McLaren. Would you take a decision to leave a team that has supported you since your childhood lightly? I think not!


Has he proved everything at Red Bull? He's proved what many of us have been saying, that he had to have a double diffusered rear to perform, and without it he isn't anything special...


I know this is going to get knickers in a knot; but, I personally fail to see the difference between Vettel "needing" a car with blah blah blah blah blah and Hamilton "needing" a car with blah blah blah blah...

The only difference between the two is that one is a multiple WDC and the other isn't... yet!!
#419618

Vettel's proved everything he has to at Red Bull. I'm sure he'd have loved to stay at Red Bull for another year. This is like Hamilton and McLaren. Would you take a decision to leave a team that has supported you since your childhood lightly? I think not!


Has he proved everything at Red Bull? He's proved what many of us have been saying, that he had to have a double diffusered rear to perform, and without it he isn't anything special...


I know this is going to get knickers in a knot; but, I personally fail to see the difference between Vettel "needing" a car with blah blah blah blah blah and Hamilton "needing" a car with blah blah blah blah...

The only difference between the two is that one is a multiple WDC and the other isn't... yet!!


Yes,to win a championship you need a 'top' car. But if you think the only difference between Hamilton and Vettel is the amount of championships won, then really words fail me.
#419625
What I don't understand about Vettel's huge salary is the evidence that he needs a specific car to perform brilliantly, not that he will get the car to perform regardess, and they clearly
aren't going to give him that car in the forseeable future. Unless they plan to push the FIA to bring back double this and blown that, he's certainly no replacement for Alonso, who proves
that unless you have a far superior car you do need the cream to compete. As Newey recedes RB are going to struggle with their YDP approach, and the arrogance of their success is
there in Kvyat. It's like they've taken the Frank Williams approach to another level - we don't even need top recognised drivers.
#419629

Vettel's proved everything he has to at Red Bull. I'm sure he'd have loved to stay at Red Bull for another year. This is like Hamilton and McLaren. Would you take a decision to leave a team that has supported you since your childhood lightly? I think not!


Has he proved everything at Red Bull? He's proved what many of us have been saying, that he had to have a double diffusered rear to perform, and without it he isn't anything special...


I know this is going to get knickers in a knot; but, I personally fail to see the difference between Vettel "needing" a car with blah blah blah blah blah and Hamilton "needing" a car with blah blah blah blah...

The only difference between the two is that one is a multiple WDC and the other isn't... yet!!


Yes,to win a championship you need a 'top' car. But if you think the only difference between Hamilton and Vettel is the amount of championships won, then really words fail me.


RC, I was referring to the interconnectedness of the car, the team, the driver and that little bit of luck that any WDC needs.
NO matter how good/great of a driver any one has been, is or ever will be, without all those components working together, titles will not be won.

Again, at the moment, Vettel has had that for four years, Hamilton hasn't. That's the difference I referred to.
#419638

Vettel's proved everything he has to at Red Bull. I'm sure he'd have loved to stay at Red Bull for another year. This is like Hamilton and McLaren. Would you take a decision to leave a team that has supported you since your childhood lightly? I think not!


Has he proved everything at Red Bull? He's proved what many of us have been saying, that he had to have a double diffusered rear to perform, and without it he isn't anything special...


I know this is going to get knickers in a knot; but, I personally fail to see the difference between Vettel "needing" a car with blah blah blah blah blah and Hamilton "needing" a car with blah blah blah blah...

The only difference between the two is that one is a multiple WDC and the other isn't... yet!!

No, the point is WDCs win races in cars that aren't blah blah blah. :thumbup: He's a Ferrari driver now. :thumbup::thumbup: Even Kimi won driving a Lotus. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Ricciardo has won three races driving the Are Bea-Ten. Vettel still has like four chances to change all of that though. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
#419666
What I don't understand about Vettel's huge salary is the evidence that he needs a specific car to perform brilliantly, not that he will get the car to perform regardess, and they clearly aren't going to give him that car in the forseeable future. Unless they plan to push the FIA to bring back double this and blown that, he's certainly no replacement for Alonso, who proves that unless you have a far superior car you do need the cream to compete. As Newey recedes RB are going to struggle with their YDP approach, and the arrogance of their success is there in Kvyat. It's like they've taken the Frank Williams approach to another level - we don't even need top recognised drivers.


Just adding to this, I haven't really heard much about Vettel's capabilities in developing a car, he can definitely drive one and exploit every ounce of speed out of a car. So there's no doubting his ability behind the steering wheel especially if its a OP car. But can he develop a car which he will have to do a lot more at Ferrari. During his time at Red Bull's domination years, mostly Newey and other RB staff talked highly of Webber's capabilities of developing and improving the car but not much in regards of Seb. I could be wrong but it is something that doesn't get heard much on Vettel.
#419673
According to Vettel and his development skills. I've heard him mention a couple times this year that what is missing in this years car is the ability to put the foot down mid corner. Development for the coming years I guess will consist of Ferrari pushing to bring back blown diffusers.
#419699
Seb wants his toy back!!!!
#419734
Lots of drivers win """a""" race, without winning the WDC.
Not the same as winning a title

Vettel's proved everything he has to at Red Bull. I'm sure he'd have loved to stay at Red Bull for another year. This is like Hamilton and McLaren. Would you take a decision to leave a team that has supported you since your childhood lightly? I think not!


Has he proved everything at Red Bull? He's proved what many of us have been saying, that he had to have a double diffusered rear to perform, and without it he isn't anything special...


I know this is going to get knickers in a knot; but, I personally fail to see the difference between Vettel "needing" a car with blah blah blah blah blah and Hamilton "needing" a car with blah blah blah blah...

The only difference between the two is that one is a multiple WDC and the other isn't... yet!!

No, the point is WDCs win races in cars that aren't blah blah blah. :thumbup: He's a Ferrari driver now. :thumbup::thumbup: Even Kimi won driving a Lotus. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Ricciardo has won three races driving the Are Bea-Ten. Vettel still has like four chances to change all of that though. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Correct me if I'm wrong; but, were those WDC winners driving cars with all the gimmicks that they seem to have today?
#419740

Vettel's proved everything he has to at Red Bull. I'm sure he'd have loved to stay at Red Bull for another year. This is like Hamilton and McLaren. Would you take a decision to leave a team that has supported you since your childhood lightly? I think not!


Has he proved everything at Red Bull? He's proved what many of us have been saying, that he had to have a double diffusered rear to perform, and without it he isn't anything special...


I know this is going to get knickers in a knot; but, I personally fail to see the difference between Vettel "needing" a car with blah blah blah blah blah and Hamilton "needing" a car with blah blah blah blah...

The only difference between the two is that one is a multiple WDC and the other isn't... yet!!


Yes,to win a championship you need a 'top' car. But if you think the only difference between Hamilton and Vettel is the amount of championships won, then really words fail me.


The difference is Seb has been outperformed on track by teammates like di resta, Bourdais and ricciardo, and Lewis has outperformed on track teammates like Alonso, Button and Nico.

Seems only one person is getting their knickers in a """knot""" abot understanding why Seb was booed by the real track attending Tifosi

oh well, theres always todays MEA CULPA to look forward to :hehe:
#419741
Lots of drivers win """a""" race, without winning the WDC.
Not the same as winning a title

Vettel's proved everything he has to at Red Bull. I'm sure he'd have loved to stay at Red Bull for another year. This is like Hamilton and McLaren. Would you take a decision to leave a team that has supported you since your childhood lightly? I think not!


Has he proved everything at Red Bull? He's proved what many of us have been saying, that he had to have a double diffusered rear to perform, and without it he isn't anything special...


I know this is going to get knickers in a knot; but, I personally fail to see the difference between Vettel "needing" a car with blah blah blah blah blah and Hamilton "needing" a car with blah blah blah blah...

The only difference between the two is that one is a multiple WDC and the other isn't... yet!!

No, the point is WDCs win races in cars that aren't blah blah blah. :thumbup: He's a Ferrari driver now. :thumbup::thumbup: Even Kimi won driving a Lotus. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Ricciardo has won three races driving the Are Bea-Ten. Vettel still has like four chances to change all of that though. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Correct me if I'm wrong; but, were those WDC winners driving cars with all the gimmicks that they seem to have today?


No one had the rear diffuser type downforce afforded to Vettel by Newey other than Webber, and Webber couldn't make use of it as Seb could. Now that Seb doesn't have it ( it's banned ) he's struggling to drive the car and has easily been beaten by his team mate. Vettel didn't dominate teammates prior to F1 either. both Lewis and Alonso have generally had the upper hand with teammates throughout their career. They've also won races in cars that have no right to win races....not the best, not the fastest but they've still won. They've given points to their team against the odds. Many suspected Vettel was not in the league of Hamilton and Alonso, this year seems to have confirmed that.
#419760
Many suspected Vettel was not in the league of Hamilton and Alonso, this year seems to have confirmed that.


but, but we have been told it is """all""" about the """"TEAM"""", and driver and car are inseperable

Seb and RBR TOGETHER won for """"4""" years :clap:

Many suspected Alonso/Ferrari were not in the same league as Hamilton/Merc and Vetel/RBR, this year seems to have confirmed that
#419837
What I don't understand about Vettel's huge salary is the evidence that he needs a specific car to perform brilliantly, not that he will get the car to perform regardess, and they clearly aren't going to give him that car in the forseeable future. Unless they plan to push the FIA to bring back double this and blown that, he's certainly no replacement for Alonso, who proves that unless you have a far superior car you do need the cream to compete. As Newey recedes RB are going to struggle with their YDP approach, and the arrogance of their success is there in Kvyat. It's like they've taken the Frank Williams approach to another level - we don't even need top recognised drivers.


Just adding to this, I haven't really heard much about Vettel's capabilities in developing a car, he can definitely drive one and exploit every ounce of speed out of a car. So there's no doubting his ability behind the steering wheel especially if its a OP car. But can he develop a car which he will have to do a lot more at Ferrari. During his time at Red Bull's domination years, mostly Newey and other RB staff talked highly of Webber's capabilities of developing and improving the car but not much in regards of Seb. I could be wrong but it is something that doesn't get heard much on Vettel.


With very limited test time I think a driver's car development has been stunted. Vettel and the rear end were a perfect marriage, he seemed to understand it,
so gave good feedback, but doubt he pushed the car in that direction. I don't know about the other stuff, but I suspect Webber's influence lessened as
they developed the car for Vettel. Even Alonso has been slated for not developing the Ferrari, but again we don't know to what length any driver develops
a car, particularly in a team environment.

The technical side has now overriden everything. In the last twenty years I can only think of two people who have made a constant and significant difference
across multiple teams, Newey and Brawn. You could probably add MS into the perfect storm of Ferrari domination but that was different era with different paramters.
Unless we're putting the Merc success down to him too. Nobody really talks about who made this Merc great, it just seemed to appear fully formed, like a freaky baby.

So if Ferrari are hoping and expecting Vettel to bring a faster dynamic to the team they'll be disappointed. He probably lied in the job interview and told them the
double diffuser was all his idea.
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