FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

Discuss the sport you love with other motorsport fans

By CookinFlat6
#408339
Red Bull are managing to have a competition

That they are winning the team competition 'the best of the rest' despite their kit car engine package

Ferrari have an engine competition with Renault that they are losing despite being the largest engine maker brand in the world

Ferrari need to avoid the F1 version of Brazils routing - getting beaten by Renault, who make hatchbacks and are not even entering a car in F1

I would say the new guy was brought in because the damage to Ferraris 'marketing=race team publicity' could be at risk for the first time in a long while

Thankfully he appears to understand business more than he does passion
User avatar
By sagi58
#408341
With the rules, as they are (i.e. Feb.28th as the deadline for teams to
submit a sample of their engine, complete with specifications), and a
development freeze is imposed, how are we supposed to have any sort
of competition, once the season gets under way?

That's what planning and engineers and dynamometers are for. Ferrari take pride in producing the finest engines on the grid first and foremost. It is their essence, or are you saying that they needed some type of special exclusion to be able to compete with the likes of Renault and Mercedes? Im confused, are other manufacturers not under the same limitations? And please don't even dare say that Mercedes was able to put more resources on their engines because as Ferrari themselves have said in the past, if you don't have the resources to compete then you shouldn't be on the grid.

Yes... that's what planning is for and, yes, that's why engineers get paid the big bucks; but,
what's happened to the development in F1? Does it only have a place in the off-season?

No, I don't believe Ferrari should have a special exclusion to that rule; but, what's wrong with
being able to continue improving on the original design/performance of the car that was built
in the off-season, especially in light of the limited testing allowed? Also, if it's not evaluated
and translated into improvements, what's the point of gathering a plethora of statistics at each
track? Should that data not be put put to good use in order to improve a car's performance, for
the current season, especially since the FIA seems to change the rules, practically at a whim?

Or are you saying that since Mercedes got it right, too bad for everyone else and to h.e.l.l. with
having any level of competition, outside the team, now that the season has started? The other
teams on the grid seem to be there only to make up the numbers because the only competition
for the title seems to be the Mercedes teammates.

Is that really all the competition we are going to see this year? :confused:

As for the resources, the only thing I have to say is that Mercedes was smart in getting to work
on this year's car long before Ferrari and Red Bull did!! Ross Brawn is obviously a man of vision
and intelligence and it's definitvely paid off for Mercedes, this year!! :clap::clap::clap:
By What's Burning?
#408344
but, what's happened to the development in F1? Does it only have a place in the off-season?

No, development goes on the entire season.

what's wrong with being able to continue improving on the original design/performance of the car that was built
in the off-season, especially in light of the limited testing allowed?

There is no restriction on car development and the restriction on engine development are ONLY for performance gains, there are no restrictions for improvements made to gain reliability or for cost savings. In other words there is still lots of areas to improve where engines are concerned. Ferrari is actually to be commended since they seem to have a very reliable foundation to their power plant.

Also, if it's not evaluated and translated into improvements, what's the point of gathering a plethora of statistics at each
track? Should that data not be put put to good use in order to improve a car's performance, for the current season, especially since the FIA seems to change the rules, practically at a whim?


Again, your original comment was about engine development, and your comments here are about car development, two completely different things. There is extremely good data gained on testing components on Friday and there were various test dates ADDED to this year primarily at the request of Ferrari. We've actually had tons more testing than in recent years past.

Or are you saying that since Mercedes got it right, too bad for everyone else and to h.e.l.l. with
having any level of competition, outside the team, now that the season has started? The other
teams on the grid seem to be there only to make up the numbers because the only competition
for the title seems to be the Mercedes teammates.


are you saying that Mercedes should be penalize for producing the most powerful engine? Ferrari are the epitome of engine builders, they would laugh the garagistas off the grid, I would counter that you should be upset that they failed to deliver the most powerful PU given their pedigree, prowess and experience.

Is that really all the competition we are going to see this year?

It's certainly competition, since two drivers are competing for the crown as opposed to last year with Vettel going at it alone, or 2011. I'm not sure why you've had this sudden change of heart though regarding competition. I recall you vehemently defending RBR for their dominance, particularly after the shellacking Vettel gave everyone in Singapore. I'd love to hear more about your rationale. :P


As for the resources, the only thing I have to say is that Mercedes was smart in getting to work
on this year's car long before Ferrari and Red Bull did!! Ross Brawn is obviously a man of vision
and intelligence and it's definitely paid off for Mercedes, this year!! :clap::clap::clap:


Thank you, I was starting to think that given some of your comments above, you were not going to acknowledge the hard work they put in and are therefore deservedly earning their just rewards. Glad we got that settled. :wink:

Perhaps Ferrari with Marco Mattiacci's vision can do the same next year since they've focused their effort on the F15T so early on.
By CookinFlat6
#408346

As for the resources, the only thing I have to say is that Mercedes was smart in getting to work
on this year's car long before Ferrari and Red Bull did!! Ross Brawn is obviously a man of vision
and intelligence and it's definitvely paid off for Mercedes, this year!! :clap::clap::clap:


Yes its paid off for Merc "this" year and I am sure all Ferraris problems can be sorted soon and so it pays off for next year

There is a small problem with that - limited testing and engine development "freeze" to save costs as agreed by "ALL" teams means its gonna be hard to get a winning car for next year while competing this year, as Merc and the others will also be developing their cars in parallel.

So maybe its best to have big reg and rules changes followed by a period of reg stability and development freeze. Which would mean the best time to target a big development spur would be for the next reg change. Since 2009 when some teams were caught unprepared unlike RBR they have prepared for the next reg change - 2014. And some have done their job better, and again some have been caught out.

And now lets have some sympathy for Ferrari who have been caught out for the second reg change in a row, why?
because no one told them in 2008 exactly what 2014 regs would be?
or because they are better at aero than engines and so its unfair?
or because they are not big enough or cant afford to compete with RBR?

or because who cares about facts, this is Ferrari, the team with the tradition and so not only do we have to provide sympathy about how silly the development freeze is even after having had one in place every single year for many many years, apart from the sympathy Luca then goes further and demands changes because of reasons like
the fans dont like it
It is tarnishing F1
F1 should be about engines not aero (but not just any engine, V12s with 8 exhausts and carburettors)

if this is the kind of "support" that the fans want - 'avoid reality, avoid discussion which reminds everyone where the team are, just attack the rules and sound knowledgeable' then I have a feeling the new TP is gonna become really really hated (until he eventually turns the team completely around, then he will become an Enzo replacement worship figure)
I dont remember Todt and co went down too well in the first 3 or 4 years
User avatar
By sagi58
#408379
Or are you saying that since Mercedes got it right, too bad for everyone else and to h.e.l.l. with
having any level of competition, outside the team, now that the season has started? The other
teams on the grid seem to be there only to make up the numbers because the only competition
for the title seems to be the Mercedes teammates.


are you saying that Mercedes should be penalize for producing the most powerful engine? Ferrari are the epitome of engine builders, they would laugh the garagistas off the grid, I would counter that you should be upset that they failed to deliver the most powerful PU given their pedigree, prowess and experience.

NOPE!! Mercedes should not be penalized!!
Truth be told, I am upset that Ferrari hasn't done as well, if not better!!
And, you do not have to rub it in!! :P

Is that really all the competition we are going to see this year?

It's certainly competition, since two drivers are competing for the crown as opposed to last year with Vettel going at it alone, or 2011. I'm not sure why you've had this sudden change of heart though regarding competition. I recall you vehemently defending RBR for their dominance, particularly after the shellacking Vettel gave everyone in Singapore. I'd love to hear more about your rationale. :P

The difference between the two teams is that Red Bull did not win every race, with a 1-2 finish,
from the beginning of the season, so initially, there was more competition than this year.
And, in 2012, it came down to the wire, with Alonso (who had one more DNF).

No change of heart, just getting tiresome to tune into the race and not see Ferrari up there.
Am I jealous? Maybe! :blush:

By the way, I wasn't "vehemently" defending Red Bull, so much as I couldn't fathom why every
one was so up in arms about their dominance, since it was only Vettel that seemed to have
success. This year, I get that!! :yes:


As for the resources, the only thing I have to say is that Mercedes was smart in getting to work
on this year's car long before Ferrari and Red Bull did!! Ross Brawn is obviously a man of vision
and intelligence and it's definitely paid off for Mercedes, this year!! :clap::clap::clap:


Thank you, I was starting to think that given some of your comments above, you were not going to acknowledge the hard work they put in and are therefore deservedly earning their just rewards. Glad we got that settled. :wink:

Perhaps Ferrari with Marco Mattiacci's vision can do the same next year since they've focused their effort on the F15T so early on.

If it seems that I don't acknowledge their success, it's not because I don't.
There just doesn't seem to be any point to repeat it over and over, with each post.
We all know Mercedes got it right; we all know they worked hard to do so; we all
know one of their drivers will win the WDC and that they've got the WCC won.
Since we're discussing the season, within that framework, there doesn't seem to be
any reason to preface every comment/post with that salient fact!

And, I hope you're right about Ferrari and Mattiacci!! :thumbup:
User avatar
By sagi58
#408380

As for the resources, the only thing I have to say is that Mercedes was smart in getting to work
on this year's car long before Ferrari and Red Bull did!! Ross Brawn is obviously a man of vision
and intelligence and it's definitvely paid off for Mercedes, this year!! :clap::clap::clap:


Yes its paid off for Merc "this" year and I am sure all Ferraris problems can be sorted soon and so it pays off for next year

There is a small problem with that - limited testing and engine development "freeze" to save costs as agreed by "ALL" teams means its gonna be hard to get a winning car for next year while competing this year, as Merc and the others will also be developing their cars in parallel...

I don't see that as a "small" problem, so much as it has limited all the teams,
possibly more than they imagined when they agreed to this cost cutting measure.

p.s. I appreciate the constructive criticism. :clap:
By LRW
#408382
By the way, I wasn't "vehemently" defending Red Bull, so much as I couldn't fathom why every
one was so up in arms about their dominance, since it was only Vettel that seemed to have
success. This year, I get that!! :yes:


:confused:

Sorry? Its ok for a team to dominate with one driver, where we know who is going to win every race, and who is going to win the WCC AND who is going to win the WDC.

BUT its not ok for a team to dominate with two drivers, where we still have wheel to wheel racing, where we dont know who is going to win each and every race, and although we know the outcome of the WCC, we really dont have a clue who is going to win the WDC?

But... I mean.. how can... nope, I give up.
By Hammer278
#408393
By the way, I wasn't "vehemently" defending Red Bull, so much as I couldn't fathom why every
one was so up in arms about their dominance, since it was only Vettel that seemed to have
success. This year, I get that!! :yes:


:confused:

Sorry? Its ok for a team to dominate with one driver, where we know who is going to win every race, and who is going to win the WCC AND who is going to win the WDC.

BUT its not ok for a team to dominate with two drivers, where we still have wheel to wheel racing, where we dont know who is going to win each and every race, and although we know the outcome of the WCC, we really dont have a clue who is going to win the WDC?

But... I mean.. how can... nope, I give up.


LOLZORS! :rofl:
User avatar
By sagi58
#408417
By the way, I wasn't "vehemently" defending Red Bull, so much as I couldn't fathom why every
one was so up in arms about their dominance, since it was only Vettel that seemed to have
success. This year, I get that!! :yes:


:confused:

Sorry? Its ok for a team to dominate with one driver, where we know who is going to win every race, and who is going to win the WCC AND who is going to win the WDC.

BUT its not ok for a team to dominate with two drivers, where we still have wheel to wheel racing, where we dont know who is going to win each and every race, and although we know the outcome of the WCC, we really dont have a clue who is going to win the WDC?

But... I mean.. how can... nope, I give up.

Allow me...

It was bad enough that Red Bull had such success ahead of Ferrari;
but, Alonso did give Vettel a run for his money in 2011, right?
Because Alonso was so close and because it was obvious that his
Ferrari wasn't up to it, there seemed no "shame" in losing out to
the top team.

Fast forward to this season: Ferrari is still not up at the front.
This year, it's not Red Bull, it's Mercedes. And, Red Bull. And,
Williams. This year, it's really getting to me.

Better? :thumbup:
User avatar
By sagi58
#408420
Thanks to WB for bringing this to my attention, albeit inadvertently:

Kurt Badenhausen wrote:">The World's 50 Most Valuable Sports Teams 2014

...Rounding out the top 50 are a Formula 1 team (No. 21 Ferrari at $1.2 billion) and the NHL’s most valuable franchise, the Toronto Maple Leafs, who rank 26th at $1.15 billion...

Image

#21 Ferrari
Value: $1.2 billion
Owner: Fiat Group


Formula One's more storied brand, Ferrari, finished third in the team standings last year, but has added sponsors like Haas Automation and Weichai Power to boost revenues and the team's value.


p.s. please pardon the "selective editing"; but, being from Toronto and being a Ferrari fan,
it surely feels good to hear this sort of information!! :blush:
By What's Burning?
#408427
Pretty impressive showing by Ferrari. There is tremendous profit in selling Ferrari simulators to the Tifosino. Or eau de toilette to the more sophisticated.

Image
Image
By Hammer278
#408447
Maybe their products are sort of a leading indicator as to where the race team is heading.....oops. :yikes:

Just kidding. I always wonder how Ferrari have so much money when they only sell super cars and have competitors such as Lambo, Bugatti/VW, McLaren, and the other Panarama and other Ps. It's not a major market is it?.....Looks like diversification is what gets you there, promoting brand image through other products. Good for Ferrari.
By LRW
#408451
Allow me...

It was bad enough that Red Bull had such success ahead of Ferrari;
but, Alonso did give Vettel a run for his money in 2011, right?
Because Alonso was so close and because it was obvious that his
Ferrari wasn't up to it, there seemed no "shame" in losing out to
the top team.

Fast forward to this season: Ferrari is still not up at the front.
This year, it's not Red Bull, it's Mercedes. And, Red Bull. And,
Williams. This year, it's really getting to me.

Better? :thumbup:


Much. You should try being more honest next time. In my opinion that will make your posts on the lesser of the annoying side of things, in my opinion.
  • 1
  • 116
  • 117
  • 118
  • 119
  • 120
  • 189

See our F1 related articles too!