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By myownalias
#422262
But with the above said; it's good news that Sam Michael is leaving McLaren, the team has slid backwards ever since his appointment; I know it's popular to blame Button and Whitmarsh for Mclaren's downfall, but the problems are much more deep-rooted. Most are hailing Ron Dennis as the savior of McLaren, which is yet to be seen, I'm not convinced that Honda coming back will catapult McLaren back into being title contenders. RD did oversee many title winning years, but also oversaw many poor years. No team seems to dominate in F1 for an extended period, maybe five or six years, just look how Ferrari have fallen from grace since the Schumacher years.
By CookinFlat6
#422267
MOA, apart from the fact that you were the most vocal about there been nothing wrong with McLaren and that the staff were all fine, its interesting that you now say the problems are deep rooted implying they have been there for a while.

If you are happy SM is leaving because the team has gone downhill since he came, and you remember that he was brought in to fix the problems and downhill slide - remember the disastrous pitstops he 'fixed?

How can you then stop short of extending SM type blame onto those that arrived at the team AFTER its last title and were part of the changes implemented then that have now been rejected by Ron and Erick. Doesn't makes sense that the problems are deep rooted, and SM can be blamed but not the guys who brought him in and took the team from title winners to Force India beaters

Maybe the guys that the team revolved around after Ron left are not to blame for the team sliding constantly from the minute they arrived, but a guy who came in later and actuially fixed something is to be blamed?

Its not ok or comfortable to come second, and thats why Ron is making all these changes - how do you know Honda will NOT be the trigger to return the team to the top, similar things have happened throught the teams history, you are really comparing Ron with the guy who was there before??? You dont see any changes recently?? are you sure you are a McLaren fan?

As far a Ferrari making it acceptable to be mediocre - Ferrari were even worse before the MS era, since then they have competed in small patches, back then they were not even capable of half what Alonso has done this year
Last edited by CookinFlat6 on 23 Oct 14, 20:44, edited 1 time in total.
By What's Burning?
#422269
:shrug: Makes sure they don't get hit with 100 million dollar fines?
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By myownalias
#422270
MOA, apart from the fact that you were the most vocal about there been nothing wrong with McLaren and that the staff were all fine, its interesting that you now say the problems are deep rooted implying they have been there for a while.

I don't believe that I have ever said that nothing was wrong; I have said on numerous occasions on this forum that there are more people than Button and Whitmarsh to blame for McLaren's downfall. McLaren have not been the same prolific winning team since starting their road car business; I believe that McLaren's goals have changed, McLaren is not solely a racing team, they have become a car maker and like all car makers, F1 is a vehicle for the promotion of their car business. And I am not implying anything, I am staight up saying that McLaren's issues predate Button, Whitmarsh and Michael.

If you are happy SM is leaving because the team has gone downhill since he came, and you remember that he was brought in to fix the problems and downhill slide - remember the disastrous pitstops he 'fixed?

He might have been brought in to stop the rot... but why pick Michael who just oversaw the downfall of Williams? Michael failed spectacularly in resurrecting McLaren's fortunes, when he joined McLaren, the team were still winning races with both drivers, now they struggle to get on the podium.

Everyone at McLaren including RD are to blame for their current piss poor fortunes; but the general trend is to blame Button and Whitmarsh,
By CookinFlat6
#422278
but but MOA, how can you implicitly blame SM and not the guy who hired him to help fix issues that sprang up under his leadership

It doesnt make sense to blame SM at all when you insist the problems were there a long time before AND its never down to a few individuals, and to then hint that Ron is not a step forward??

You gotta help me out here, I must be missing something, but it seems you are targetting a guy who kept his head down this year, and at the same time saying its wrong to target other individuals
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By myownalias
#422280
Cookin' I am not absolving anyone of blame, each team member has to take some of the blame; including MW and JB; even RD has to shoulder some of the blame, he may have been taking a back seat to Whitmarsh but he was clearly still involved in the decisions being made, just have to look at the LH contract renewal situation. SM was brought in to help revive McLaren's fortunes and he failed in that role, he failed to get the McLaren house in order and here we are looking at a second season without single tick in the win column. For the record, I was using Ferrari as an example of how teams go through purple patches, only to slide down the ranks later before rising again.
By CookinFlat6
#422282
Its hardly fair to blame SM for not turning the team round. I agree with you that he was a wrong choice, but it wasnt his fault, probably thought all his birthdays had come at once when a team like McLaren employed him AND gave him a prominent role right after his (lets be fair) disastrous time with Williams. And he may have been part of the reason Lewis and/or Paddy left - but if thats the case only 1 person is to blame for that and he has been terminated with prejudice so I think we can safely say it wasnt all SM's fault his disturbing looks got him a position way above his competency.

With Ron, its not really fair to say he was pulling strings when we know he was reduced to figurehead and sidelined, removed from the executive roster etc etc - all this is well documented. As far as the Lewis stuff he had no choice IMO, he did what he had to do in the role forced upon him. You seem to be not taking into consideration that the terminated TP stayed in position because of insidious politics going behind Rons back with protection from the Bharainis. Ron was trying to fire him for years because of the disasterous hirings and results and loss of sponsors.

In that light I am sure you will agree its not fair to blame Ron for ANY of the disaster, its like blaming a guy who got shot for letting blood spill on the carpet

and I dont agree ALL the problems were there before Button or his benefactor arrived, McLaren had the 2xWDC AND Lewis AND effectively won 4 titles in the 2 years, if you are saying the management by Ron of Alonso was the problem then its hard to counter that, but the problems were sloppiness, pitstops, resources on wrong driver etc etc etc _ All after Ron left
Last edited by CookinFlat6 on 23 Oct 14, 22:39, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By myownalias
#422283
With respect I disagree that Ron Dennis is blameless; he was aware of the situation and the seemingly easy takeover from Whitmarsh going into this season would suggest that RD still had the power to pull strings, we'll have to agree to disagree on that point, although it's not like we agree on much, apart from SM's hiring!
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By myownalias
#422292
McLaren took a nosedive after Lewis left. :twisted:

No, McLaren took a nosedive after Mika retired :twisted::twisted: then had one *lucky* year with Lewis! :P
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By racechick
#422305
This 'support' thread is really rather amusing; most of the posts are actually made by non McLaren fans... don't mind me, carry on... :hehe:


The thing is Myown, many of the people you say are not McLaren fans were strong McLaren fans (and not only because of Lewis) before the Whitmarsh fiasco. It's just they could see the writing in the wall and hated what they saw. I bet you the majority will be vocally supporting McLaren as they return to the place they should be, fighting at the front.

I can't completely figure the whole Whitmarsh/Button disaster. The obvious I was vocal about as it was unfolding. It was head banging beyond belief. But I always had Whitmarsh down as inept and Button down as a political opportunist. So Button working Whitmarsh if you like. And if that's a correct assessment, the blame has to lie with Whitmarsh not Button, Whitmarsh was the senior figure. But I've thought about this a bit more and I'm not sure Whitmarsh was as hapless as he made himself out to be.
Whitmarsh the smiley. Whitmarsh the nice guy, the joker, the giggler. Did he overplay the hand too much? Because the Whitmarsh he showed to the public wasn't the guy who would go behind his benefactors back. Ron had groomed him for years to take over, then when he got the opportunity, apart from screwing things for McLaren, he tried to stitch Ron up to the point Ron had to get him out. And it took years.

Another point. His relationship with Lewis. It was clear to anyone with any degree of perception that he struggled with Lewis. The false smile shone falser around Lewis. The body language. The undermining comments. Lewis has never said a bad word about Whitmarsh, but Lewis is naive to politicking, though he's learning. Did Whitmarsh bear a grudge against Lewis? Was it resentment from the time Anthony fell out with him? Did he place his own wants/needs/ ambitions/ grudges above McLaren's best interests?
I've recently experienced deceitfulness, and it's an eye opener.

One other point on this that niggles. The way the resources were placed behind Button at the expense of Lewis. A team wouldn't do that on the say so and politicking of the driver. But if the boss told them they had to, then they'd have to. I've read recently, on this topic, that they had Lewis, who could drive round anything and Button , with his narrow window of operation. So they designed the car for Button knowing Lewis would cope. This would be a slower car . And this doesn't sit well with the comments Paddy made about designing a car round Lewis before he was even in F1 ' he just got in the car and drove it ,fast, while the regular drivers were bitching it was undrivable, it gave us the opportunity to design a faster car' . And what did Paddy do. He left.

Just some thoughts there, some musings on the situation.
By CookinFlat6
#422312
Seems that we have now got to the stage where team 'supporters' have to act in a certain way - have shallow/romantic/zero knowledge of the happenings at the team and just be able to post wishful thinking or uninformed assumptions.
Oh yeah, and at some point they need to declare they are ready to bleed the colour of the teams logo. There should be an entry exam for the 'loyal' McLaren fans - along the lines of the following;
1) Who is the lady that makes the tea?
2) Who is the secretary of the chief designer?
3) Who is the chief designer?
4) Who is normally the first to arrive in the morning?
5) How often does the gardener (landscape optimisation influencer) use the sprinklers?

I mean its a team sport right? you support the team you support every member - from top to bottom or else how can you call yourself a team supporter

Nah, I think the rest of us will have to be content with following the individuals that drive the team - the TP, the driver. Who would a Caterham supporter be supporting right now? The administrator? :rofl:
By Hammer278
#422317
Hilarious....few of us were creaming Whitmarsh/Sam Fired Michael/Button from the very beginning even before the slide backwards and what do have now.....the cursed trinity is almost complete. 1 more politicking duck to let go of and McLaren have a serious chance to get back to the top. :thumbup:
By What's Burning?
#422328
There was a veritable laundry list of "McLaren in recession" deniers where anything questioned was immediately shot down and dog piled on as heresy. All the while claiming there was absolutely nothing wrong at the team. :rolleyes:

1) They are still without a title sponsor (yet that's supposed to be a good thing)

2) They have been incapable of gaining throughout the season, on the contrary they loose ground. (anyone remember the McLaren of 2009) The dog they brough and the car they had at the end of the year?

3) They brought in bad talent to scout and acquire worse talent.

4) They are handed the best engine on the grid, and manage to perform the worst of any team using that engine.

If you search the forum, I'm sure you'll find my statement that the reason I was a McLaren supporter is because I felt they had historically been able to out develop any team over the course of a season and gave us good competition because of that. Not sure how that's being a bad fan, but it's difficult to defend any of the bizarre management and technical decisions the team has made since 2010.

So they have somehow lost a great driver that they're now publicly pleading for to come back. They have had their worst season in 30 years, and have been without a win for two year. Sliding only backwards through the grid.

Every team has good years and lean years but McLaren has managed to do something special. They have managed to put themselves in this position all on their own.
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