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[CookinFlat6]

...The technical side has now overriden everything. In the last twenty years I can only think of two people who have made a constant and significant difference
across multiple teams, Newey and Brawn. You could probably add MS into the perfect storm of Ferrari domination but that was different era with different paramters.
Unless we're putting the Merc success down to him too. Nobody really talks about who made this Merc great, it just seemed to appear fully formed, like a freaky baby...

Why would it be so hard to believe that Schumi helped develop the car in his time at Mercedes?
Isn't that ironic? Hamilton has benefitted from Schumi's skill, experience and expertise!!

During his time at Merc they attempted to develop the car around him, and he improved, but there was none of that previous Schumacher sparkle.
You can't just plonk someone in a car, even MS, and tell them to work their magic again. Not that they didn't try, but there were quite a few people
who all contributed to Ferrari's success, and he was just a part of that.

He may have had input to the early design of this Merc but knowing he wasn't going to drive it, or that it wouldn't turn a wheel in anger when he
was there, i doubt there's much, if any, MS dna in it.

There is evidence from Ross Brawns hints and statements that MS' dependency on the tyres from his era was a main factor in the development dead end Merc found themselves in. The car was a tyre muncher and Ross was happy to see MS leave as that meant the car development could go in a more open ended direction.
The evidence flys in the face of suggesting that the 2014 Merc had ANYTHING to do with MS' input in particular
On the other hand we have all the circumstantial evidence you can shake your rhythm stick at that the car took a huge leap following Lewis' arrival

[racechick]

......... And the McLaren took a huge dive. That of course is to massively oversimplify things, but we have Paddy on record saying , with Lewis he could design a more 'edgy ' car and Lewis could drive it while the other drivers were screaming it was undrivable. And we have Jenson on record , saying ' at last the engineers are listening to me,I've had a real impact on the direction of this car' , and look where it went from a race winning car. Maybe Lewis' presence at Mercedes allowed a more adventurous car development? And Nico, the swat, Nico the engineer, Nico the quick learner was able, with the data sharing, to shadow what Lewis did.

It's engineers who design and develop the cars, but they must have to design it with half an eye on the needs and skills of their driver.
And this is what Newey did with the Red Bull, he saw how Vettel could exploit a car which was planted to the track and so he brilliantly developed it to suit him.
Just some thoughts.

[Jabberwocky]

The issue with the Newey style development os that it become a one car team. As Webber would justify. Maybe the secret is get 2 drivers who like the same out of the car, and hope that is how the car comes out of the box.

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[CookinFlat6]

......... And the McLaren took a huge dive. That of course is to massively oversimplify things, but we have Paddy on record saying , with Lewis he could design a more 'edgy ' car and Lewis could drive it while the other drivers were screaming it was undrivable. And we have Jenson on record , saying ' at last the engineers are listening to me,I've had a real impact on the direction of this car' , and look where it went from a race winning car. Maybe Lewis' presence at Mercedes allowed a more adventurous car development? And Nico, the swat, Nico the engineer, Nico the quick learner was able, with the data sharing, to shadow what Lewis did.

It's engineers who design and develop the cars, but they must have to design it with half an eye on the needs and skills of their driver.
And this is what Newey did with the Red Bull, he saw how Vettel could exploit a car which was planted to the track and so he brilliantly developed it to suit him.
Just some thoughts.

Spot on RC, this myth of the cerebral driver developing the car like Seb spending the whole night with the engineers then helping them clearup after just before popping over to the tyre factory to give them some advice as well - that myth seems to have disappeared quicker than a Tifosi after a race at Monza

All the driver can do is give feedback - i.e. let them know if a change is faster or not - none of this princess and the pea stuff - 'oh my legwarmers didnt feel comfortable so I cant say if its that or the aero change that means nmy lap time is worse than previous'

Engineers love a driver that will consistently drive a car at its limit of stability, adhesion and plain physics. Not a driver that requires a particular bias wrt the limit and style of breaching instability. If a driver can drive faster (because he feels safer) when understeer will occur way before oversteer it kinda hard for the developers to know what they can do or exploit at one end of the car. If the driver is like Alonso and is skillful and brave enough to sit through the oversteer with clenched buttocks then its not so bad for the developers.

But if its a buttock belonging to the buttom of one j button, then thats a no go, the car cannot be pushed even temporarily in one direction because he will moan and b!tch and maybe even leave the engineer of the steak dinner list

There is no phd driver designing a car since black jack, guys like MS (before he came back), Lewis Alonso are just so good the engineers can go along a direction with the knowledge they can brach out to others if needs be and not end up in a dead end that causes a 3 month slump.

Seb proves he is a 1 trick pony in that aspect - brilliant at being developed around as long as its his party trick, Alonso is more flexible although the evidence shows he requires the whole team focused around him and blowing roses up his exhaust and indulging his every whim.

Its no surprise that engineers like Paddy will follow a driver like lewis who doesnt even notice the oversteer Nico couldnt handle without weeping over the radio, and its no surprise how the Mclaren now is only any good on fast flowing 'smooth' circuits where even miss daisy can get a cheap thrill without too much risk

[CookinFlat6]

Maybe the secret is get 2 drivers who like the same out of the car, and hope that is how the car comes out of the box.

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maybe the secret is to get a driver who likes anything at all out of a car then it can come out of the box in anyway and evolve

[Roth]

......... And the McLaren took a huge dive. That of course is to massively oversimplify things, but we have Paddy on record saying , with Lewis he could design a more 'edgy ' car and Lewis could drive it while the other drivers were screaming it was undrivable. And we have Jenson on record , saying ' at last the engineers are listening to me,I've had a real impact on the direction of this car' , and look where it went from a race winning car. Maybe Lewis' presence at Mercedes allowed a more adventurous car development? And Nico, the swat, Nico the engineer, Nico the quick learner was able, with the data sharing, to shadow what Lewis did.

It's engineers who design and develop the cars, but they must have to design it with half an eye on the needs and skills of their driver.
And this is what Newey did with the Red Bull, he saw how Vettel could exploit a car which was planted to the track and so he brilliantly developed it to suit him.
Just some thoughts.

I don't want to turn this into a Hamilton discussion but when a driver has a greater width of talent, you're right, it gives the designers more to work with
and it's not a complete coincidence that the relative fortunes of teams have flowed with him. What I found surprising on Sunday was everyone's reaction
at how the Merc drivers handled oversteer in those conditions, as though any of it was new. Once Nico started complaining about oversteer on an
inter track, we could have filled in the race from there, esp knowing they had the same set-up (which incidentally I think Hamilton may have moved towards
Nico after their long runs in practice).

Years back Paddy said Hamilton could handle a ridiculous amount of oversteer, beyond acceptable limits, and Nico has never been good on inters. Wets he's fine,
and it would have been a lot closer if it had stayed that way, but as it was it just meant as the race progressed Hamilton was holding a huge advantage.

What's strange about Vettel, and I've said it before, is he likes a planted back but loves the wet too, even in this car. My brain can't work that out.

[Jabberwocky]

I was pointimg more towards having 2 x vettels in a blown diffuser style car.

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[racechick]

I was pointimg more towards having 2 x vettels in a blown diffuser style car.

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But then when they ban double diffusers you're doubly stuffed.

[What's Burning?]

What's strange about Vettel, and I've said it before, is he likes a planted back but loves the wet too, even in this car. My brain can't work that out.

...and therein lies the clue as to why Vettel worked magic with the Newey design while Webber was unable to take the same advantage of it. He's doing or expecting or is comfortable with corner entry understeer which when blown would immediately increase and right the car in the mid corner which would then allow it to accelerate out at a much greater exit speed. Or at least that's what I would make of it.

Now there is only oversteer when you give it any kind of throttle on corner exit, the cars are not planted at the rear any more.

[Jabberwocky]

I suppose he is also hurt by having a lot more torque to spin the wheels up on exit as well.

[What's Burning?]

I suppose he is also hurt by having a lot more torque to spin the wheels up on exit as well.

Not just that, you've got the brake by wire rear to complicate corner entry! How twitchy these cars are was fully on display in Suzuka when Hamilton screwed up the DRS that one lap trying to overtake Rosberg. So everything in Vettel's world has been turned upside down with the behavior of these new cars.

[What's Burning?]

So Forbes is reporting the Vettel contract is worth 80 million a year!

This would make him the highest paid athlete in ze world! What this says to me is that the falling out Alonso and Ferrari had was clearly NOT about money.

[racechick]

80 mil a year!! Jesus! That's ridiculous. Could be to pissFernando off even more. But that's a very irresponsible way to piss someone off. I'd have thought Ferrari could use that money usefully to make the car go faster.

[LRW]

He is 4xWDC. He is worth every dollar.

*snigger*

[CookinFlat6]

I smell an MnM 'in yur face' gamesmanship to this reported sum of money - theres no way Ferrari are paying 80mil a year to one driver - no way a guy like Sergio will do that when you study his methods of slashing costs and raising revenues by ditching sentiment, if thats the case you can slap me round the face and call me LRW