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#399876
But doesn't that apply to a lot of the front of the grid drivers? I know no-one else had Newey's great blown diffuser, but a lot of the cars were much more stable at the rear compared to this year ......?
#399879
A few of us have been saying that for some time. Vettel can use the rear downforce to execute faster turning by a trick he learnt. Came initial from an article by Mark Hughes analysing what gives Lewis , Alonso and Vetel their edge. Cookie has referred to it several times. When the double diffusers were banned Vettel was not faster than Webber until Newey engineered back some of that downforce.

Yes all the cars have less downforce this year , but Vettel's had more last year and his advantage over the field depended on it. So with it gone he's the biggest loser. He now looks average.
#399880
A few of us have been saying that for some time. Vettel can use the rear downforce to execute faster turning by a trick he learnt. Came initial from an article by Mark Hughes analysing what gives Lewis , Alonso and Vetel their edge. Cookie has referred to it several times. When the double diffusers were banned Vettel was not faster than Webber until Newey engineered back some of that downforce.

Yes all the cars have less downforce this year , but Vettel's had more last year and his advantage over the field depended on it. So with it gone he's the biggest loser. He now looks average.


He doesnt look average. He is! ahhaahahhahah
#399883
RC - I agree he had better. The point I was trying to make (badly) was that the other top drivers have had to go from a planted rear, to a unstable real mans racing car. And a lot of them seem to be doing fine, so I feel it's a bit of grasping at straws, just trying to find excuses for him.
#399884
RC - I agree he had better. The point I was trying to make (badly) was that the other top drivers have had to go from a planted rear, to a unstable real mans racing car. And a lot of them seem to be doing fine, so I feel it's a bit of grasping at straws, just trying to find excuses for him.


I think the difference is whilst all the drivers are having to adjust, He has a double whammy, because not only has he lost his superior downforce, but with it his cornering trick (and that's where his advantage over Webber was)
#399888
It takes a tremendous amount of talent to keep a car from going sideways. Last year when cornering at the edge of grip, more throttle would get you more rear downforce. This year, doing that will only get you only more sideways. I was personally hoping that having lost that aero advantage Vettel would show that he was a fighter like Alonso or Lewis, able to win while not having the class of the field car and able to keep a guy with a clear advantage behind him.

A case of the emperor's new clothes, the year is still young, we'll see.
#399889
Ricciardo can hit the ground running while Vettel has to effectively learn to drive again!

You'd expect a 4 time WDC to already know how to drive.
#399916
...When the stars aren't perfectly aligned he struggles...

I would suggest this is true of pretty well any driver... wait, any sports persona... out there!!
F1 is not about man against man, it's about a team effort where the machinery is just as important as the driver!
Of course, your teammate is the best way to measure how you're really doing; but, even then, there will be other mitigating factors during a race weekend.


You are defending him because out of four reasons why he might be struggling there's not one that even suggests it's solely because he's lacking in the necessary skills.

So basically you've said, it's not his fault.

Again, that's your assumption. Since we'd already heard/read/discussed how it's his
lack of skills what I intend was to show you the flip side of the coin, namely that there
are a number of variables that impact on how a driver wins/loses.
#399917
Ricciardo can hit the ground running while Vettel has to effectively learn to drive again!

You'd expect a 4 time WDC to already know how to drive.

Sometimes you get lazy and complacent when you have the best kit; it comes as a shock to the system when that comfort goes away.

I liken it to someone who has driven an automatic for the past 10 years; they'd become lazy and it'll take some time to acclimatize to a manual gearbox again!
#399918
Ricciardo can hit the ground running while Vettel has to effectively learn to drive again!

You'd expect a 4 time WDC to already know how to drive.

Ya think? :banghead:

(( :rofl: ))
#399933
...When the stars aren't perfectly aligned he struggles...

I would suggest this is true of pretty well any driver... wait, any sports persona... out there!!
F1 is not about man against man, it's about a team effort where the machinery is just as important as the driver!
Of course, your teammate is the best way to measure how you're really doing; but, even then, there will be other mitigating factors during a race weekend.


You are defending him because out of four reasons why he might be struggling there's not one that even suggests it's solely because he's lacking in the necessary skills.

So basically you've said, it's not his fault.

Again, that's your assumption. Since we'd already heard/read/discussed how it's his
lack of skills what I intend was to show you the flip side of the coin, namely that there
are a number of variables that impact on how a driver wins/loses.


I'm aware of the variables, I'm not that stupid. It was taken into consideration, then his skills were judged. You were the one that took one point from my paragraph, and made a general assumption about something very specific. When I say perfectly aligned, I mean it's within Vettel's narrow window. I did mention all this before but you just passed over it. Other top drivers don't need such a small margin to work their magic.

The first pages of this thread, three years ago, people are having exactly the same discussions. That's three further crowns which have yet to convince many race fans that Vettel is worthy of the plaudits and records. Even your man Alonso questions his authenticity.
#399937
I think it's as simple as the new cars don't suit Vettel's style of driving, and he's talking a while to adapt. He's good enough to get there but now he has the added psychological barrier of his teammate being faster, something he's never had in F1 and that might slow down his adaption or make him more motivated.

We saw that in the lower categories too, the moment his teammate started beating him(Paul Di Resta), he just drove backwards.
#399940
But he's never been comfortable with this type of back-happy car, and has never adapted, but always struggled. Newey worked his magic before, but the new configurations don't allow for that kind of solidity.
#399946
...When the stars aren't perfectly aligned he struggles...

I would suggest this is true of pretty well any driver... wait, any sports persona... out there!!
F1 is not about man against man, it's about a team effort where the machinery is just as important as the driver!
Of course, your teammate is the best way to measure how you're really doing; but, even then, there will be other mitigating factors during a race weekend.


You are defending him because out of four reasons why he might be struggling there's not one that even suggests it's solely because he's lacking in the necessary skills.

So basically you've said, it's not his fault.

Again, that's your assumption. Since we'd already heard/read/discussed how it's his
lack of skills what I intend was to show you the flip side of the coin, namely that there
are a number of variables that impact on how a driver wins/loses.


I'm aware of the variables, I'm not that stupid. It was taken into consideration, then his skills were judged. You were the one that took one point from my paragraph, and made a general assumption about something very specific. When I say perfectly aligned, I mean it's within Vettel's narrow window. I did mention all this before but you just passed over it. Other top drivers don't need such a small margin to work their magic.

The first pages of this thread, three years ago, people are having exactly the same discussions. That's three further crowns which have yet to convince many race fans that Vettel is worthy of the plaudits and records. Even your man Alonso questions his authenticity.

Thanks for the clarification and I apologize if I seemed to be argumentative. It's just that it would seem
that Vettel can't do anything right, according to some fans. Just as Alonso can't do anything right by others,
or Schumi by yet others. But, that's part of the sport, right?

At the end of the day, this is the Vettel support thread and even if I don't particularly appreciate his and
Red Bull's dominance these last few years, he does have fans and, out of respect for them, I respect his
accomplishments. That sort of winning streak doesn't occur very often in any sport!
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