FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[CookinFlat6]

I disagree, electric cars have been around for 20 years now and we still don't have anything affordable with any decent range and fast charging destroys the batteries, that's if you can find a fast charging station in the first place. Until a car maker actually finds a way to self charge the batteries from recovery systems, it will never work because you will always need a second gasoline powered car every time you want to go out of town.

Electric cars have been around for as long as petrol cars, its only recently that the battery weight, technology and charging rate have started to exponentially improve. The highlighted part is actually wrong on many levels - but thats understandable as its the general impression of electric we retain from most of the last 100 years.
The important one is range, why would one need a petrol fueled car to extend its range when the technology for collecting and storing electricity has no theoretical limits? At present solar panel efficiency and battery storage to weight ratios are a fraction of what is theoretically possible. Battery tech will improve like processor tech, as will solar panel efficiency.

So WHEN a car can store enough charge for a range of 5x what we have now then a petrol engine no longer has a range advantage, and the beauty is there will be more access to the energy to 'refuel' your EV than finding a petrol station seeing as the sun is everywhere we look (except in Britain ofcourse)

Have a look at the Tesla thread for some great links assuming you dont mind being pleasantly surprised at how the reality has changed

[myownalias]

Have a look at the Tesla thread for some great links assuming you dont mind being pleasantly surprised at how the reality has changed

I'm always happy to read and learn new things, I'll have a read through when I get time, which is more difficult that it appears between, work, kids, wife and the occasional bit of sleep.

But we have some new news in regard to engines for 2016, motorsport.com is citing Auto Motor und Sport as saying that new engines are on the way for 2016;

F1 is now speeding towards yet another new set of engine regulations.

On Thursday at a Geneva meeting of the Strategy Group, Bernie Ecclestone proposed to scrap the current turbo V6 rules.

Michael Schmidt, of the respected German trade magazine Auto Motor und Sport, said that although his proposal did not produce a "definitive result", the sport is now headed towards an all-new set of regulations for 2016.

"The engines are to be louder, more powerful and cheaper," said Schmidt on Friday.

"The goal is 1000 horse power and a cost of 10 million euros per team. An expert group must deliver results (on the proposal) by the end of January," he added.

It is now too late, however, to make significant changes to the 2015 rules, which will be almost identical to the turbo V6 formula that saw Mercedes cruise dominantly to the title this year.
Only four

Geneva, however, did produce one or two rule tweaks for 2015.

Recently, when Korea was surprisingly added to the 2015 schedule, it was said Ecclestone had done it as a mere trick to give every driver an extra engine to use throughout next season.

But on Thursday, that loophole was closed and - regardless of whether 20 or 21 races are ultimately held next year - each driver will be limited to just 4 engines for the 2015 season as originally intended.

Schmdit said the tweak was made because the extra engine would have cost already struggling teams up to an extra 800,000 euros.

[What's Burning?]

That's never going to happen. Mercedes, Honda and anyone else Audi/VW thinking of getting in will turn their nose. It's just negotiating noise being made by Bernie and Horner to gain any kind of leverage.

Honda just spent how much to build an engine for McLaren to use over one season and they think that Honda will cast their vote with Ferrari? When you think about it the only ones with nothing to lose are Red Bull so that's why they're pushing. They can switch to another engine manufacturer but they realize that this deficit if going to go until at least 2017 if nothing changes. I'm actually enjoying the comedy as Bernie is looking more and more senile with each of his ever more outlandish "suggestions".

[CookinFlat6]

Bernies suggestions are not really taken seriously otherwise it would be all over the mainstream media - 'F1 to go back to gas guzzlers, read all about it' - therefore he put forward a proposal that would have to be ratified by the F1 commission and then voted in, and as WB said, Honda will not side with horny bernie meaning no change. Also we should note that even this report is careful to mention new engine regs and not a new engine, so all bernies proposed after all the wind up is to make the engines easier to bring to parity and most important.....they should only cost 10 mill per team. Well shucks, I am sure even the most ""fervent"" and easily led F1 supporters realise that engines get cheaper after the development costs have been recouped - unless ofcourse you are trying to force your engine builder to spend more to chase an impossible dream.

The ERs is the part that flummoxed the noble old school v12 engine builders, and without that extra 160 bhp they are prancing donkeys. So they want to abandon the development on the ERS bit. Merc called their bluff and said everyone could have its ERS, problem solved, but for some reason Ferrari or Renault dont want to buy Mercs ers for x euros, and prefer to spend 5x euro to produce a legless version. So it does look like check mate by Merc

Any changes in the regs for 2016 still have to be voted in and without Honda agreeing to allow the losers to cancel the innovative and challenging part that attracted Honda back to F1 barely a year after spending lots, the poisonous toad like oik is just doing what he does manipulating the easily led

Bernie Ecclestone said Friday night that he is determined to force through cost cuts on Formula One teams after the failure of talks on Thursday.

Two teams – Caterham and Marussia – have gone bust in the past two months and Ecclestone said their demise has been fuelled by this year’s switch from 2.4-litre V8 engines to 1.6-litre V6 turbos, which cost double at around £30m annually.

At Thursday’s meeting of F1’s decision-making body, the Strategy Group, Ecclestone attempted to engineer a return of the V8 engines in 2016, but he said: “Nobody wants to change the engines, they are all happy.

“The engine situation is unchanged. It’s not exactly great progress. The next step is that we will have another meeting in January and the teams will have to come back with something positive. If they don’t, we will say this is how it has got to be.”

Mercedes has been the biggest beneficiary of the switch to the V6 engines and raced to victory this year with Lewis Hamilton at the wheel. The V6 engine regulations are due to be in place until the end of 2020 and Ecclestone said the only way they could be changed for next year is through a unanimous vote from all the teams.

“You’re never going to get that because Mercedes will never agree,” he said. “For 2016 we would get away without it being unanimous. That’s for the January meeting. These people don’t seem to be making any big effort to save on costs.”

[What's Burning?]

It's at the point where it has become embarrassing to the point of trying to finagle an extra engine for reliability that Renault saw last year. Red Bull is indeed a drinks company and Ferrari are inept without the favorite son status of yesteryear that Red Bull has usurped from them. They brought in the Marlboro man to try and rectify that.

BBCF1 Formula 1 is considering introducing more powerful, louder but cheaper engines within the next few years.

The sport only switched to the cutting edge V6 turbo hybrid engines for 2014 but there are concerns in some quarters these are too expensive and too quiet.

Bosses have asked a working group to deliver proposals as to how to adapt the engines to meet their demands.

Its first meeting will be on 6 January, but, given the complexity of the project, a change for 2016 is unlikely.

The rule changes that were imposed for 2014

Meanwhile, Ferrari and Renault are close to winning the right to be allowed in-season engine development in next year's championship.

The teams have been pushing for a relaxation of the rules for months, arguing they need a chance to catch up with constructors' championship winners Mercedes.

Governing body the FIA had intended that any changes to engines from this year into next must be presented for approval by 28 February, with development forbidden thereafter other than for reliability, cost-saving or fuel efficiency reasons.

But Renault and Ferrari have argued that a loophole in the regulations meant this was not precisely defined.

The issue was discussed at a meeting of the rule-making strategy group on Thursday.

And it now seems likely that manufacturers will be able to upgrade their engines after the start of the season as well as before it.

However, an expected clarification from the FIA on the subject did not materialise on Friday as the organisation worked to establish the most robust possible wording.

If, as expected, Renault's and Ferrari's arguments are accepted, both are likely to introduce major developments during the year.

But Mercedes, whose engine was dominant in the first season of the new turbo hybrid engine formula in 2014, will be able to do the same.

However, there will still be some restrictions on how much an engine can be modified in a given year.
How the modification would work:

"Any modifications would still have to comply with the restrictions that already govern engine development.

"Aimed at keeping costs down, these follow a formula that defines 92% of the engine as being open to development from the first season of the design to the second.

"From this, manufacturers choose a maximum of 48% they can develop.

"This 48% is split into 32 "tokens", assigned to parts of the engine depending on their influence on performance.

"Manufacturers would be able to implement their 32 development tokens throughout the year, rather than having to use all before the season starts."

The surprise inclusion by F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone to add Korea to the 2015 calendar, taking the season to a record 21 races, has also come in for criticism.

Korea was added because it was felt it might be a way around the rule restricting manufacturers to four engines in 2015, a reduction of one from last season.

The issue arose following pressure from Renault, who struggled for reliability in 2014, applied through their works team Red Bull.

The rules dictate that if there are more than 20 races when the calendar was "originally scheduled", five engines would be allowed.

But some have argued that the calendar produced in December, which featured Korea, was not the first one issued - there was an earlier one in September.

The most likely scenario is that Korea will be dropped, there will be 20 races and the teams will be restricted to four engines as originally planned.

[overboost]

Bernie Ecclestone said Friday night that he is determined to force through cost cuts on Formula One teams[/b] after the failure of talks on Thursday.

Two teams – Caterham and Marussia – have gone bust in the past two months and Ecclestone said their demise has been fuelled by this year’s switch from 2.4-litre V8 engines to 1.6-litre V6 turbos, which cost double at around £30m annually.

At Thursday’s meeting of F1’s decision-making body, the Strategy Group, Ecclestone attempted to engineer a return of the V8 engines in 2016, but he said: “Nobody wants to change the engines, they are all happy.

“The engine situation is unchanged. It’s not exactly great progress. The next step is that we will have another meeting in January and the teams will have to come back with something positive. If they don’t, we will say this is how it has got to be.”

Mercedes has been the biggest beneficiary of the switch to the V6 engines and raced to victory this year with Lewis Hamilton at the wheel. The V6 engine regulations are due to be in place until the end of 2020 and Ecclestone said the only way they could be changed for next year is through a unanimous vote from all the teams.

“You’re never going to get that because Mercedes will never agree,” he said. “For 2016 we would get away without it being unanimous. That’s for the January meeting.These people don’t seem to be making any big effort to save on costs.”

It is good to see progress being made for 2016 to bring some sanity to the exorbitant engine costs and hopefully the non-competitive predicament that has F1 in the doldrums. Unfortunately Mercedes has already locked 2015 and not much can be done to remedy that situation.

As Ecclestone has pointed out the teams will need to come back to the meeting in January with some productive ideas or else it will be the return of the V8 if it comes down to him.

[Hammer278]

Well....if Old Man Bernie indeed thinks he can bully the manufacturers around by breaking his own rules and words, he is in for some fun. Mercedes and Honda give him the finger and leave the sport (after Merc wraps it up in 2015), F1 is dead the minute that announcement is made.

[What's Burning?]

Bernie could be dead before the announcement is made.

[overboost]

Bernie could be dead before the announcement is made.

This is actually a distinct possibility!

[darwin dali]

Bernie could be dead before the announcement is made.

This is actually a distinct possibility!

And a hope for many

[myownalias]

The cost cutting talk from the past 10 years is complete , talking about engine changes again is stupid, why not simply cap the cost that manufacturers can charge for the existing engines instead of forcing car makers to re-engineer again, we don't need 1000hp engines, the teams are struggling to get the 750hp down on the road sometimes, let alone another 250hp on top.

[CookinFlat6]

Bernie Ecclestone said Friday night that he is determined to force through cost cuts on Formula One teams[/b] after the failure of talks on Thursday.

Two teams – Caterham and Marussia – have gone bust in the past two months and Ecclestone said their demise has been fuelled by this year’s switch from 2.4-litre V8 engines to 1.6-litre V6 turbos, which cost double at around £30m annually.

At Thursday’s meeting of F1’s decision-making body, the Strategy Group, Ecclestone attempted to engineer a return of the V8 engines in 2016, but he said: “Nobody wants to change the engines, they are all happy.

“The engine situation is unchanged. It’s not exactly great progress. The next step is that we will have another meeting in January and the teams will have to come back with something positive. If they don’t, we will say this is how it has got to be.”

Mercedes has been the biggest beneficiary of the switch to the V6 engines and raced to victory this year with Lewis Hamilton at the wheel. The V6 engine regulations are due to be in place until the end of 2020 and Ecclestone said the only way they could be changed for next year is through a unanimous vote from all the teams.

“You’re never going to get that because Mercedes will never agree,” he said. “For 2016 we would get away without it being unanimous. That’s for the January meeting.These people don’t seem to be making any big effort to save on costs.”

It is good to see progress being made for 2016 to bring some sanity to the exorbitant engine costs and hopefully the non-competitive predicament that has F1 in the doldrums. Unfortunately Mercedes has already locked 2015 and not much can be done to remedy that situation.

As Ecclestone has pointed out the teams will need to come back to the meeting in January with some productive ideas or else it will be the return of the V8 if it comes down to him.

It is not down to Bernie anymore to change the engines, all that has happened is the procedure set out ages ago for changing things. People just make it sound like something is happening or changing. The strategy group can make a proposal ( RBR already argued at the start of the year that this was not binding but just a recomendation), that proposal has been made, now someone has to draw up some details of what the change would be and present it at the next meeting - in January. And then the same people who bernie admits already rejected new engines at the last meeting will have to vote on sending it to the commission for a suggestion. Nothing will change at the meeting in Jan, and so the only thing left to do would be to try and bring in new regulations.

Bernie cant change the engines at the Jan meeting for 2016, there has to be a vote and the votes are tied at present with Honda able to swing either way - he says these things knowing someone out there, a naive journo might fall for it and make a headline.

All that can happen is the FOM and FIA using the power they have to bring in changes in the regs, but again these have to go through the process outlined. THERE WILL NOT BE A NEW ENGINE FORMULA till 2020 unless Honda side with the losers and that aint gonna happen.

[What's Burning?]

Thought I'd read 2019? Maybe it was that 2019 was to be the last year for the current regs.

[CookinFlat6]

They agreed to a 5 year engine stability and major engine format change. V6 Turbos Hybrids with Ers are here till 2020.

They can try put some lipstick on it or change its name to V6 Noisy Explosive Combustion with spark plugs or even make punch a hole in the exhaust but the format will not change without a major default allowing the guys who signed up for 5 years to walk off, leaving the Tv rights deal in tatters and CVC holding an expensive name plate with F1 written on it

Maybe it would be worth it if there was any guarantee Renault or Ferrari could make better V8s than Merc, who beat had the best V8 last time round. Merc make better V8s than the 2 losers, Merc also make Hybrid ERS MUCH better than the 2 losers

Its just lose lose for a big segment of F1 'fans' for the next 4 years

[overboost]

They agreed to a 5 year engine stability and major engine format change. V6 Turbos Hybrids with Ers are here till 2020.

They can try put some lipstick on it or change its name to V6 Noisy Explosive Combustion with spark plugs or even make punch a hole in the exhaust but the format will not change without a major default allowing the guys who signed up for 5 years to walk off, leaving the Tv rights deal in tatters and CVC holding an expensive name plate with F1 written on it

Maybe it would be worth it if there was any guarantee Renault or Ferrari could make better V8s than Merc, who beat had the best V8 last time round. Merc make better V8s than the 2 losers, Merc also make Hybrid ERS MUCH better than the 2 losers

Its just lose lose for a big segment of F1 'fans' for the next 4 years

Yes but unfortunately it just didn't work and now CVC/Bernie are looking for a multi year 'F1 Stability' plan. If the engine producers can get the V6 Turbo's down to $10M and up to 1000Hp then all will be ok with the format, if not Bernie is going to law down the law (according to Bernie!).