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[CookinFlat6]

We now have a bit of definition for what has been a very confusing and emotive period for certain F1 fans. We have closed the chapter of any changes at all for 2015, although some are still arguing for it not understanding that the battle (which only existed in Horners head) cannot be fought because the deadline for 2015 is long past.

The action has therefore moved on to the next theatre and we are waiting for Horner to draw up his lines and dig in. As mentioned before the engine protagonists are Merc vs Ferrari, Renault are not interested even in being in F1 racing and they have been reluctant to spend money in the first place. Horner was therefore providing a proxy for an unwilling Renault, therefore the 2015 battle could not have been won without RBR formally putting up a lot of cash to persuade Renault to agree to any open ended spending.

So the next battle appears to be forming around changing the hybrid for a simple turbo and standard recovery - so Red Bull wouldnt have to put up so much with Renault. Lets face it no one would care if Renault walk away - except Red Bull who are the only customer, and as a works partner wont be paying much for the engines - so If Renault want to walk away it wont be because of the Hybrid itself its because they messed up the business. Leaving Red Bull to take over - so Horner will want to take over Renault as cheaply as possible

So we have Merc and Honda vs Ferrari and RBR F1 engines(formerly Renault), I think the next battle is already decided

Toto Wolff has responded to Christian Horner's quit threat, adamant Renault won't walk away from F1 if the sport sticks with the 1.6-litre V6 engines.

Unhappy with the current engines, Horner is keen to Formula 1 to ditch the 1.6-litre turbocharged V6 units in 2016.

He reckons they are too complicated and too expensive and that any fear that Mercedes could quit the sport if they are changed should be weighed up against the prospect of other manufacturers walking away.

"What do you do?" said the Red Bull team boss. "If you leave it as is, you will probably drive Renault and one or two others away.

"So, you have to do what is right for the sport rather than what is right for an individual manufacturer."

Wolff, though, is adamant that sticking with the current units long-term will not result in Renault quitting the sport.

He told Autosport: "They are interesting comments, but probably the whole story has been turned around a little bit.

"What we have said is that Formula 1 needs long-term stability and that the constructors in Formula 1, Renault, Honda and Mercedes, decided to enter Formula 1 based on a set of rules.

"And all of the constructors, including Ferrari, share that vision, share that view.

"So he [Horner] is probably speaking about his team and not Renault."

The Mercedes motorsport boss, whose team dominated this year's Championship easily winning both titles, also claimed that Ferrari are committed to the current format, they, like Renault, just want the engine freeze lifted.

"I think Ferrari is very committed to the current engine format, and it's clear for all of us that short term we shouldn't be erratic," he said.

"We shouldn't take any decisions that will destabilise Formula 1 and destabilise potential new entries such as Honda or others.

"We need to look at the long-term perspective and how we can optimise the sport.

"There were some very sensible discussions, very refreshing and direct views from Ferrari, and the meeting made all the sense in the world.

[What's Burning?]

Let's be precise here, Horner is calling for a twin turbo, because with that Mercedes are unable to utilize the split front rear turbine/compressor set up they've not got.

So we have Merc and Honda vs Ferrari and RBR F1 engines(formerly Renault), I think the next battle is already decided

not so fast there with those assumptions, you've yet to see what the Marlboro man can do in the FiA boardroom.

[CookinFlat6]

I think Horner has a quarter of the chance of this happening than he had of lifting the freeze for 2015

[stonemonkey]

Let's be precise here, Horner is calling for a twin turbo, because with that Mercedes are unable to utilize the split front rear turbine/compressor set up they've not got.

To me it just sounded like lame scare tactics to get merc to agree to changes now.

[What's Burning?]

And I may be in support of that if only Mr Ginger Spicy wasn't such a weasel. Red Bull assumed the position of favorite son in the FBerniA after Ferrari lost their favored son status. It's why we never saw a single meaningful penalty issued againt Red Bull after at least three instances of outright cheating and a handful of other "extreme rule bending" where the FiA didn't even bother to investigate. That house of cards is not very stable at the moment.

I'm enjoying every minute of the melodrama though.

[Ferrari man 009]

I don't know if it is going to happen, but im sure earlier this season there was talk of Red Bull starting to make its own engines in Austria if Renault didn't up its game. I think it was around the time Red Bull were having numerous reliability issues and poor performances on the "power" circuits.

Ironically, of the 4 "power" tracks in F1 (Austria, Canada, Spa, Monza) its suprising to note that Red Bull won 2 of them and both in dry conditions (ok, I know Merc had various issues, but still it was interesting it was RBR and not Williams picking up the pieces!)

[CookinFlat6]

RBR are taking over the Renault F1 engine building facility. It makes sense for Renault to try and salvage some return as at present they are facing huge losses on top of their huge loss, if they walk away they have lost a fortune, if they stay they continue loosing as they have no paying customers apart from their works deal with RBR. RBR have already funded the developemnt since the last freeze in areas like elcetronics, and have to make the decision to sign a deal with Renault to assume the whole costs going forward. So Horner is already committed to Renault become RBRs works engine as opposed to the other way round - these are huge costs for RBR who dont make cars. They cannot do it unless the engines are changed to something Renault can provide without R&D costs which would be pase on to RBR

Not sure when RBR would have to commit to this liability but I think if the Honda engine is good and similar to Mercs then 2016 will nit be changed by consensus vote, so i reckon we will see RBR decide to dump Renault completely for 2016 after the winter tests if Honda is like Merc and can provide cheap engines to customers in 2016. Could be the last throw of the dice for RBR and Ferrari.

Like i said previously its very likely that Merc and Honda will be the only 2 that last as engine makers. If Ferrari is taken over by Mercedes on the road car side (dont laugh its highly likely - look at VW/Audi and Lambo) then the ferrari engine works is hostory and effectively and ferrari road cars will run a merc engine with a Ferrari badge, and the F1 side will be history, as it should have been the minute they discovered they cannot compete for 2 years running - shareholders wil not tolerate waste like this when the whole car industry is all about mergers and sharing platforms and R&D

Ferrari and RBR could be history as important F1 players by 2016

all IMHO

[CookinFlat6]

I found an articulate version of what I have been trying to explain to the site expertz who are still discussing the 'engine freeze' without all the salient facts at hand

Yes its from the Judge site

Engine rivals set for more Mercedes dominance

There has been a lot of propaganda regarding engine ‘freeze’, particularly from Mr. Horner and whoever is sat in ‘The Chair’ in Marenello when the music stops next.

However, Andy Cowell attempts to put matters in perspective. Speaking to Spanish publication El Mundo, he explains “The situation is clear,. You can develop the engine in different ways throughout the year [2014] and then start with the best version at the beginning of next season”.

Having listening to the rhetoric of Horner and the Red Team Boss, this may come as a surprise to many Formula One fans. Cowell adds, “There is a very long list of development opportunities for our opponents to take a big step forward.”

Indeed, around 47% of the engine can be completely replaced/renewed, whilst the other 53% is still subject to the usual regulations which frequently allow components to be ‘upgraded’ for reasons of ‘safety’ and ‘durability’.

Given this level of freedom, there is a hollow ring to Christian Horner’s threat that there will be a ‘no cost spared – free for all’ from Renault and Ferrari engine divisions for 2016.

Auto Motor und Sport are suggesting that Renault and Ferrari have again fallen behind Mercedes in the ‘in season’ engine development allowed so far this year for testing in Jerez. Apparently neither engine manufacturer will actually use the full number of tokens allowed (ie the 47%) despite the fact that Renault has engaged the services of renown specialist – Mario Illien.

Renault and Ferrari are now running out of time to prepare meaningful upgrades to their ‘power units’ before 2015. The report said neither engine maker even looks set to use all the available ‘tokens’ of allowed performance upgrades by the end-of-February freeze deadline.

Word from Marenello would suggest that Ferrari will present for 2015 a more Mercedes like engine layout, though as has been expected for some time Nikolas Tombazis will be leaving the team. Admits all this Sebastian described his first day with the Italian team as “magical”.

The unofficial voice from Ferrari-land, Italian journalist Leo Turini, penned the following words from an unnamed inside source in Maranello. “In the midst of all this euphoria, we should not forget to apologise in advance to Seb and Kimi for the car they will drive in 2015.”

Of course Ferrari fans may cling to the hope that this is sand bagging, and as part of project ‘Body bags from Maranello’, Luca Marmorina was exited in the summer, whilst a number of Mercedes engineers were recruited.

The problem is that the Mercedes engine architecture cannot be completely mimicked without some relaxation of the current regulations, though Mercedes offered an additional 5 tokens freedom for Ferrai and Renault, however, they rejected this.

Should Ferrari and Renault be allowed to simply copy the Mercedes engine design, or should they receive a reward for delivering the best solution today in the era of the new F1 V6 Turbo PU’s?

Here’s a quick summary of the engine design and redesign regulations as they stand.

The PU is divided up into 66 ‘token’ components and each is given a token weighting of 1,2 or 3.

For 2015, the teams have been allowed to redesign/change 32 of these tokens. Mercedes offered to allow a further 5 tokens to be added, 12 were requested by Ferrari and Red Bull. No agreement was found.

From the moment the engines were homologated back in February this year, the teams have ben free to work on the engine redesign for 2015.

Each year the number of tokens available for change will reduce by about 9%. Thus by 2018 there will be 15 tokens available for change – around 23% of the engine.

[LRW]

So Cookin - in idiot terms, am I right in saying:

- The rules, as agreed, state 32 tokens can be changed.
- RedBull and Ferrari came cap in hand and asked for another 12.
- Mercedes suggested a compromise of another 5. RedBull and Ferrari rejected this.

Yet somehow, Mercedes are evil, and are stifling competition??

[CookinFlat6]

So Cookin - in idiot terms, am I right in saying:

- The rules, as agreed, state 32 tokens can be changed.
- RedBull and Ferrari came cap in hand and asked for another 12.
- Mercedes suggested a compromise of another 5. RedBull and Ferrari rejected this.

Yet somehow, Mercedes are evil, and are stifling competition??

You missed the best bit, Renault and Ferrari have not even use up their tokens anyway!!!!!!

They have run out of ideas to improve their engines, they havent even developed them to the limit allowed, what they wanted was to complete start again with a completely new design.

Its truly laughable

Auto Motor und Sport are suggesting that Renault and Ferrari have again fallen behind Mercedes in the ‘in season’ engine development allowed so far this year for testing in Jerez. Apparently neither engine manufacturer will actually use the full number of tokens allowed (ie the 47%) despite the fact that Renault has engaged the services of renown specialist – Mario Illien.

Renault and Ferrari are now running out of time to prepare meaningful upgrades to their ‘power units’ before 2015. The report said neither engine maker even looks set to use all the available ‘tokens’ of allowed performance upgrades by the end-of-February freeze deadline.

Thats what the h8rz dont get, the other 2 are not even good enough to develop to the limit allwoed because they dont know what they are doing as much as Merc, which was the case from the start and is still the case. ferrari are trying to copy Merc, reproduce Mercs engine - where is the competition and blahblah there? But in trying to do so they have a qworse engine than they had before, because they didnt sit down to think it through and realise that they would have to start completely from scratch for that to work

They are history as engine makers, they will stop making engines

[LRW]

I cant believe Mercedes are being so Evil.

I might have to don a red jacket soon.

Afterall they do have the most successful WDC now. And the most ironically funny one.

[racechick]

I don't get why Ferrari and Renault ( Horner) want rules changing to allow them to make further upgrades to their engine when they haven't taken advantage of the changes that can be made under the existing rules. They're way behind again.

Well I do get it. What they actually want to say is, 'we screwed up and were beaten hands down by Mercedes, please can we tear the rules up and start again. Give us another chance.' But they can't come out and say that because it sounds pathetic, so they try to hoodwink the fans into making out they've been hard done by, and Mercdes, those big baddies are stiffling competition. It's unbelievable really.

[The Second Coming]

So Cookin - in idiot terms, am I right in saying:

- The rules, as agreed, state 32 tokens can be changed.
- RedBull and Ferrari came cap in hand and asked for another 12.
- Mercedes suggested a compromise of another 5. RedBull and Ferrari rejected this.

Yet somehow, Mercedes are evil, and are stifling competition??

THOSE CHEEKY BUGGERS! DD needs to line everyone up at Mercedes AMG and give them a good spanking.

[CookinFlat6]

I don't get why Ferrari and Renault ( Horner) want rules changing to allow them to make further upgrades to their engine when they haven't taken advantage of the changes that can be made under the existing rules. They're way behind again.

Well I do get it. What they actually want to say is, 'we screwed up and were beaten hands down by Mercedes, please can we tear the rules up and start again. Give us another chance.' But they can't come out and say that because it sounds pathetic, so they try to hoodwink the fans into making out they've been hard done by, and Mercdes, those big baddies are stiffling competition. It's unbelievable really.

Thats the propaganda and pr that Red Bull are so good at RC.

We can see the effects on members rite here on this forum. Thats the power of propogander - it bypasses logic and education or knowledge and targets the emotions and tugs at the heartstrings of the feeble and easily led. The so called war for hearts and lesser minds

Those paqssionate about the engine freeze are those you would not expect to be interested or knowledgeable about engines etc, its the passion they latch onto. When they see Horner at work, their eyes glaze over and as soon as he mentions Ferrari is on his side thats it - they are now passionate about it and will die defending it - in the meantime Horner has conceded defeat and moved on to a new area, but we are left with the poor headless sheep who are lost without further passionate cues from Horner (used to be Luca) and in the absence of any psedo scince fro Horner they can use in discussions they completely collapse and show there is not an ounce of foundation behind what they are arguing for

The best part is when they said, in this order
- we want unlimited developement, lets all keep developing the engine its not fair, lets spend more money
- we have all spent too much money, its not fair, the engines are too dear, lets bring back the V8s
- Everyone is hurting, the V6s are too expensive, we need to cut costs, its not fair, we need a new engine - less simple
- For 2016 we will vote back unlimited spending and development

And throught it all remain blissfully unaware that the V8 engine parts dont fit in the V6 turbo, and that drivers dont design engines

[CookinFlat6]

So Cookin - in idiot terms, am I right in saying:

- The rules, as agreed, state 32 tokens can be changed.
- RedBull and Ferrari came cap in hand and asked for another 12.
- Mercedes suggested a compromise of another 5. RedBull and Ferrari rejected this.

Yet somehow, Mercedes are evil, and are stifling competition??

OMG, Stiflers mum is here????