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[Ferrari man 009]

people get things in its context, in lalaland they get what was in context about 3 years behind normal folk,

i.e when its illegal to have team orders, they dont understand what team orders are, and later when its legal they dont even know what a number 1 driver means or the difference between an engine and a car

I don't mind your strong opinions, but your current insults aimed towards Ferrari fans is going too far now. Just because someone supports Ferrari does not make them an idiot!!!!!

Wasn't the ban recinded because Ferrari made a mockery of it? And didn't it come initially to curb Ferrari's excessive use of team orders?

Yeah it was re-allowed after Felipe was told "Fernando is faster than you" at Hockenheim 2010. The rule I believe was introduced as a response to Ferrari making Barrichello let Schumacher through on the line in Austria 2002, when at the time Schumacher had a comfortable championship lead and was ahead of all his rivals at the time.

[What's Burning?]

The rule I believe was introduced as a response to Ferrari making Barrichello let Schumacher through on the line in Austria 2002, when at the time Schumacher had a comfortable championship lead and was ahead of all his rivals at the time.

...and isn't that embarrassing enough? But this season is boring due to dominance.

Alonso at McLaren would have sounded like the rantings of a lunatic a few years ago, yet here we are.

[Ferrari man 009]

The rule I believe was introduced as a response to Ferrari making Barrichello let Schumacher through on the line in Austria 2002, when at the time Schumacher had a comfortable championship lead and was ahead of all his rivals at the time.

...and isn't that embarrassing enough? But this season is boring due to dominance.

At the time even as a Schumacher/Ferrari fan I was annoyed that it happened. It was so unnecessary and Barrichello deserved the win.

Germany 2010 I actually agreed with, Massa had no chance of a title challenge and Alonso needed the extra 7 points for his so it was a no-brainer.

[CookinFlat6]

people get things in its context, in lalaland they get what was in context about 3 years behind normal folk,

i.e when its illegal to have team orders, they dont understand what team orders are, and later when its legal they dont even know what a number 1 driver means or the difference between an engine and a car

I don't mind your strong opinions, but your current insults aimed towards Ferrari fans is going too far now. Just because someone supports Ferrari does not make them an idiot!!!!!

You may do well to note that a specific reference to lalaland is aimed at the well established subset of Ferrari fan who know more about Ferrari than F1. Not those who can use wiki, and definitely not those who have attended races.

Do you believe that MS was responsible for the 2014 Merc engine or the driving characteristics of the chassis? The answer will allow you to decide what group you feel comfortable to identify with.

[Ferrari man 009]

people get things in its context, in lalaland they get what was in context about 3 years behind normal folk,

i.e when its illegal to have team orders, they dont understand what team orders are, and later when its legal they dont even know what a number 1 driver means or the difference between an engine and a car

I don't mind your strong opinions, but your current insults aimed towards Ferrari fans is going too far now. Just because someone supports Ferrari does not make them an idiot!!!!!

You may do well to note that a specific reference to lalaland is aimed at the well established subset of Ferrari fan who know more about Ferrari than F1. Not those who can use wiki, and definitely not those who have attended races.

Do you believe that MS was responsible for the 2014 Merc engine or the driving characteristics of the chassis? The answer will allow you to decide what group you feel comfortable to identify with.

Personally I don't, although I do think Ross Brawn played a big part before he was pushed out. But others may have different opinions and since we do not know the facts then opinions should be respected. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, just remember that!

[What's Burning?]

I disagree, not all opinions should be respected when they're coming from fallacy or lunacy or an agenda and expect equal treatment with those who's opinions are studied or analyzed and are open about their sources of data and most of all, are willing to change their position when presented a valid counter argument.

An expert or researched opinion, specifically those who's opinion has prevailed and been proven the correct view time and again should carry more weight and validity... in my opinion.

[CookinFlat6]

people get things in its context, in lalaland they get what was in context about 3 years behind normal folk,

i.e when its illegal to have team orders, they dont understand what team orders are, and later when its legal they dont even know what a number 1 driver means or the difference between an engine and a car

I don't mind your strong opinions, but your current insults aimed towards Ferrari fans is going too far now. Just because someone supports Ferrari does not make them an idiot!!!!!

You may do well to note that a specific reference to lalaland is aimed at the well established subset of Ferrari fan who know more about Ferrari than F1. Not those who can use wiki, and definitely not those who have attended races.

Do you believe that MS was responsible for the 2014 Merc engine or the driving characteristics of the chassis? The answer will allow you to decide what group you feel comfortable to identify with.

Personally I don't, although I do think Ross Brawn played a big part before he was pushed out. But others may have different opinions and since we do not know the facts then opinions should be respected. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, just remember that!

And iam entitled to my opinion that those who believe MS had the engine and car designed around him or by him despite reading the links I posted proving that the2014 car was not setup or evolved around him is a lalaland ferrari fan

[sagi58]

Wasn't the ban recinded because Ferrari made a mockery of it? And didn't it come initially to curb Ferrari's excessive use of team orders?

EDIT: This is the mclaren driver thread. How did I get on to team orders? it's early in the morning, that must be it.

The ban was rescinded because there was no way to police whether or not teams were using team orders, since they could be any agreed upon word or phrase, e.g., hold station.

As for how we got onto team orders, ask Cookin':

people get things in its context, in lalaland they get what was in context about 3 years behind normal folk,

i.e when its illegal to have team orders, they dont understand what team orders are, and later when its legal they dont even know what a number 1 driver means or the difference between an engine and a car

It would seem there is nothing that he can't turn into a "I hate Ferrari and anything/anyone associated with them" comment.

[sagi58]

I disagree, not all opinions should be respected when they're coming from fallacy or lunacy or an agenda and expect equal treatment with those who's opinions are studied or analyzed and are open about their sources of data and most of all, are willing to change their position when presented a valid counter argument.

An expert or researched opinion, specifically those who's opinion has prevailed and been proven the correct view time and again should carry more weight and validity... in my opinion.

And, of course, there wouldn't be any sort of bias in your opinion, right?

[sagi58]

... I do think Ross Brawn played a big part before he was pushed out. But others may have different opinions and since we do not know the facts then opinions should be respected. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, just remember that!

And iam entitled to my opinion that those who believe MS had the engine and car designed around him or by him despite reading the links I posted proving that the2014 car was not setup or evolved around him is a lalaland ferrari fan

But... you've changed your own opinion since you said:

Lewis Hamilton 44 Support (formerly known as: That's Lewis)

... if [Mercedes] transfer focus and funds to turning Lewis into a champ, firstly Lewis will be paid what he deserves - The most in the paddock, and also like MS at Ferrari, [Lewis] will have Ross Brawn as well as MS to shape his success...

[What's Burning?]

Does it matter if there is bias when in time it is proven right?

McLaren are going to have a difficult time getting a title sponsor in 2013 given their performance and the loss of Hamilton... proven right

Ferrari aren't sandbagging in pre-season testing they're really struggling not hiding their performance... proven right

New Turbos will be faster than the V8's they're replacing within a couple of years... proven right the first year out I'm very proud of this one

Luca De Montezemolo is going to leave Ferrari.... opinion, proven right.

Oh and here's the latest one Ferrari are going to have a hell of a time operating their team with McLaren or Mercedes' budget once the board of directors find out how much they spend for third and fourth place season finishes.... this one is still in the future, but I trust my opinion.

I have nothing against ardent fans, I consider myself one after all, but don't confuse wishful thinking or an agenda with an opinion. Some people make a very good living giving opinions on various subjects. Other people just talk crap. They're both opinions, but you know how it is.

[sagi58]

...Some people make a very good living giving opinions on various subjects. Other people just talk crap. They're both opinions, but you know how it is.

Too bad those making a good living on giving opinions aren't members here
unless, of course, they are incognito for fear of recognition, which would be
counterproductive to them making a very good living giving their opinions.

And, you're right... a lot of people talk rubbish. You just have to be selective
when reading / responding!

[What's Burning?]

...Some people make a very good living giving opinions on various subjects. Other people just talk crap. They're both opinions, but you know how it is.

Too bad those making a good living on giving opinions aren't members here
unless, of course, they are incognito for fear of recognition, which would be
counterproductive to them making a very good living giving their opinions.

And, you're right... a lot of people talk rubbish. You just have to be selective
when reading / responding!

Owww... you got me, witty and irreverent come back, you win with that one! However my opinions have still been proven correct, where your head in the sand spankylaced mea culpad' goalpost moving malocchio fueld embittered opinions have been wrong time and time again. here's a whippedy do dah just for good measure. Now why don't you get the last comment in since I know you can't help it and let's leave this thread the discussion of McLaren's driver's line up for next year.

[peta23fromEssex]

If Button leaves McLaren, I wouldn't mind Ferrari taking Button for next year. I doubt he would do any worse than Raikkonen has this year.

Petafromkimi is going to have such a go at you.

Aww. I am a Kimi and Jens fan. And a McLaren supporter. Not a great season for me. Now I know why I am so angry all the time
Not sure about my new name, I should make a poll

And Kimi has not done well. No quarrels from me.

Aww, so you're not really Peta 23 from Essex?

Do you watch top gear?

Ah, was trying to remember where I'd heard her name other than the Sun. Was that from when they got a new reasonably priced car?

Yep, that's the one. I could not log on with IheartKimmi, so I changed names and had just watched a repeat of that episode. Anyway, back to the topic. My choice would be Jenson and Alonso.

(I actually like Jeremy Clarkson, yes he's a big shouty public schoolboy, but he doesn't take himself too seriously.)

[CookinFlat6]

... I do think Ross Brawn played a big part before he was pushed out. But others may have different opinions and since we do not know the facts then opinions should be respected. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, just remember that!

And iam entitled to my opinion that those who believe MS had the engine and car designed around him or by him despite reading the links I posted proving that the2014 car was not setup or evolved around him is a lalaland ferrari fan

But... you've changed your own opinion since you said:

Lewis Hamilton 44 Support (formerly known as: That's Lewis)

... if [Mercedes] transfer focus and funds to turning Lewis into a champ, firstly Lewis will be paid what he deserves - The most in the paddock, and also like MS at Ferrari, [Lewis] will have Ross Brawn as well as MS to shape his success...

You have little F1 knowledge, but the problem is your inability to make sense of what little knowledge you do have, and your willingness to say things despite this major handicap

for example; 'if Merc turn Lewis into a champ, he will have RB AS WELL as MS to GO ON TO shape that success. ok? so far so good?

ok 3 years later - RB is no longer there and neither is MS, so they are not there to shape his success

This is a separate part of F1 from RB shaping the TEAM, and DEVELOPING THE ENGINE

and is also separate from MS DEVELOPING THE ENGINE or SHAPING THE 2014 car

SHAPING A DRIVERS SUCCESS IS MENTORING
SHAPING AN ENGINE IS ENGINEERING
SHAPING A TEAM IS MANAGEMENT

now I KNOW you wont still be reading this far as your eyes have glazed over by now, dont forget the irelevant smiley in the reply that ignores the facts offered to you but sounds about right in lalaland

Anyway try again to work out which part MS has helped the 2014 drivers