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[Jabberwocky]

I think what OB is trying to say is that whichever driver wins the WDC this year, has because of the dominance of the Mercedes has only really beaten his team mate, as every other car on the grid is just a mobile chicane.

[darwin dali]

Overboost you say "A hollow victory imo where the rest of the field is not permitted to fight."
Not permitted to fight ? How so? The car designers design a car , under the same rules and the drivers drive it as fast as they can, luck and misfortune play their part and we get a champion at the end of the year. How are 'the rest' no permitted to fight?

Because they could not improve their engines during the season due to the engine freeze, so they had one hand tied behind their back for all of the season once it was clear that Merc had the best solution in the engine department and the others could not evolve their engines.
It's not the first time that somebody did their homework best, but in the past, there was always the option for the others to catch up within a few races or so - this year not so much.

[racechick]

Overboost you say "A hollow victory imo where the rest of the field is not permitted to fight."
Not permitted to fight ? How so? The car designers design a car , under the same rules and the drivers drive it as fast as they can, luck and misfortune play their part and we get a champion at the end of the year. How are 'the rest' no permitted to fight?

Because they could not improve their engines during the season due to the engine freeze, so they had one hand tied behind their back for all of the season once it was clear that Merc had the best solution in the engine department and the others could not evolve their engines.
It's not the first time that somebody did their homework best, but in the past, there was always the option for the others to catch up within a few races or so - this year not so much.

It's not an engine freeze, WB posted an article about it. It's all a bit of a scam saying it's an engine freeze. Renault have clearly improved through the season and regularly beat Merc powered cars , they are lying ahead of all the Merc powered cars except the Merc itself. So Merc must have got a lot else right other than the engine.

But the issue in this thread is the Nico v Lewis battle, which has been interesting but a clear superior driver has emerged and it would be a travesty if the double points gave the championship to a driver with less than half his wins.

Edit. And now I've thought of something else. I'm a driver supporter and for me the exciting thing is watching the driver make the difference, and I think Lewis is. But I'm always being told it's a team sport, it's about cutting edge technology and who can do the best design, then when someone does do the best design then people cry foul and want the rules changing.

[darwin dali]

Overboost you say "A hollow victory imo where the rest of the field is not permitted to fight."
Not permitted to fight ? How so? The car designers design a car , under the same rules and the drivers drive it as fast as they can, luck and misfortune play their part and we get a champion at the end of the year. How are 'the rest' no permitted to fight?

Because they could not improve their engines during the season due to the engine freeze, so they had one hand tied behind their back for all of the season once it was clear that Merc had the best solution in the engine department and the others could not evolve their engines.
It's not the first time that somebody did their homework best, but in the past, there was always the option for the others to catch up within a few races or so - this year not so much.

It's not an engine freeze, WB posted an article about it. It's all a bit of a scam saying it's an engine freeze. Renault have clearly improved through the season and regularly beat Merc powered cars , they are lying ahead of all the Merc powered cars except the Merc itself. So Merc must have got a lot else right other than the engine.

There were improvements in the engine management, mapping, etc., mostly software related, but no redesign of engine parts or concepts.
This development race used to be a core value in F1 - not anymore it seems.

[racechick]

I just added a bit...on my last post.
They can still develop, more than is being let on, but they have to get some of if right the first time and not just copy.

[darwin dali]

I just added a bit...on my last post.
They can still develop, more than is being let on, but they have to get some of if right the first time and not just copy.

re. your edit: that's exactly it! The rules changed for this season and it was for the worse all in the name of cost savings, which is not really working anyway as the engine manufacturers and teams will simply have to spend the millions in a shorter time frame (between the seasons).
So how about reverting this rule change to what it was before? Nothing wrong with that, is there?

[racechick]

I just added a bit...on my last post.
They can still develop, more than is being let on, but they have to get some of if right the first time and not just copy.

re. your edit: that's exactly it! The rules changed for this season and it was for the worse all in the name of cost savings, which is not really working anyway as the engine manufacturers and teams will simply have to spend the millions in a shorter time frame (between the seasons).
So how about reverting this rule change to what it was before? Nothing wrong with that, is there?

It was for the worse? I don't think it was for the worse. The worse was when the drivers had to go slow on fragile tyres, but that's another issue. The point is this decision was made in the interests of moving the sport forward and remaining relevant and it was made with the agreement of all parties. Why should the rules be reversed for the parties who came up short? But this should be in the engine thread really , not the Lewis and Nico one. Did you read the article WB posted from F1 technical( I think) ? Says it all much better than I can.

[What's Burning?]

I just added a bit...on my last post.
They can still develop, more than is being let on, but they have to get some of if right the first time and not just copy.

re. your edit: that's exactly it! The rules changed for this season and it was for the worse all in the name of cost savings, which is not really working anyway as the engine manufacturers and teams will simply have to spend the millions in a shorter time frame (between the seasons).
So how about reverting this rule change to what it was before? Nothing wrong with that, is there?

Well therein lies the point. The rule was set for this year. If we're discussing changing the rules for next year, well that's a different story but what was being asked for was to change the rules for this year, mid season and the two teams pushing for it were teams screaming very loudly to not change the rules mid season last year, and the year before that, and the year before that... see the sticking point here? And they're saying it's for the good of the sport.

So here's another thing, there is a very minimal amount of gain that can be had from a hardware change mid season unless the entire piece is remanufactured, which then means what do you do with an engine that you've used in the early part of the season with the intent of using toward the end of the season. Teams do that, they allocate certain engines for certain circuits and use that. The engines don't get used for three or four GPs in a row, they go back and get serviced etc. So we have to ask, why did Renault and Ferrari agree to this in the first place?

Lastly, you discount gains made from engine mapping but those are still gains to be made. Tuning, finding the efficiencies for both power and fuel usage. That aspect accounts for MORE gains than can be introduced with minor changes to the hardware mid season. Plus there is no freeze for changes that show a cost reduction or a reliability improvement. Again, talk to anyone that's had a mechanical DNF and ask them if improving reliability is not a "gain"?

Most of the people out there screaming have no clue what they're screaming about from a technical perspective. They just don't like their team losing, let's get real here. In any case, this season is done and dusted... let's see if Ferrari and Renault once again allow Mercedes to run away with things in 2015. And if they do... well then shame on them. There's always the option for them to buy a Merc PU isn't there?

The hypocrisy for these calls to save the sport from becoming boring or stagnant coming after we've had four years of double doubles... it's lost on some.

[darwin dali]

I want the rules back how they were before this current season, starting next season. That's all.
I want real development in F1, flat out - it claims to be the pinnacle of motorsports, but it behaves like a scared pussycat.

[CookinFlat6]

This development race used to be a core value in F1 - not anymore it seems.

it wasnt for the best part of the last 10 years

and no one seems to want to go back to spending millions for am extra 0.0003 secs - AKA the law of diminishing returns, when the average Ferrari supporter wouldnt even know the difference between a minute or a millisecond if it wasnt red with passion bleeding through its exhaust

If there is a spending war, Merc will still whip the rest, and they will still lose, but a whole world more. Everyone knows this, and everyone knows losers always find excuses and reasons eagerly lapped up by passionate fans with a bit of butthurt

[What's Burning?]

I want the rules back how they were before this current season, starting next season. That's all.
I want real development in F1, flat out - it claims to be the pinnacle of motorsports, but it behaves like a scared pussycat.

Well you don't want what you're asking for then... we haven't had these "core value" of engine development for years now. One way or another we'll be back where we were last year with everyone having basically the same PU efficiencies by 2017. So no worries.

[darwin dali]

This development race used to be a core value in F1 - not anymore it seems.

it wasnt for the best part of the last 10 years

and no one seems to want to go back to spending millions for am extra 0.0003 secs - AKA the law of diminishing returns, when the average Ferrari supporter wouldnt even know the difference between a minute or a millisecond if it wasnt red with passion bleeding through its exhaust

If there is a spending war, Merc will still whip the rest, and they will still lose, but a whole world more. Everyone knows this, and everyone knows losers always find excuses and reasons eagerly lapped up by passionate fans with a bit of butthurt

I've stated my opinion many times in the past (search the topics): I would like to have just one major restriction in F1 and that would be fuel available per race. And that would decrease annually. Let engineering prowess loose on this and we'll have some real innovation and savings.

[darwin dali]

I want the rules back how they were before this current season, starting next season. That's all.
I want real development in F1, flat out - it claims to be the pinnacle of motorsports, but it behaves like a scared pussycat.

Well you don't want what you're asking for then... we haven't had these "core value" of engine development for years now. One way or another we'll be back where we were last year with everyone having basically the same PU efficiencies by 2017. So no worries.

I just answered this above.

[What's Burning?]

I can't believe it actually. Lewis Hamilton on the cusp of his 2nd WDC. The most lauded driver of the decade, a four time WDC is finding it difficult to get near a guy that was in the B team last year. Ferrari, the engine builder that doesn't need to care about aerodynamics is crying to momma because it hurts that they didn't get it right and there is trepidation up and down the grid from legacy teams that it may not change for another year or two. I've loved every minute of the 2013 season.

Bring on the Vettel Ferrari era I say.

[CookinFlat6]

I just added a bit...on my last post.
They can still develop, more than is being let on, but they have to get some of if right the first time and not just copy.

re. your edit: that's exactly it! The rules changed for this season and it was for the worse all in the name of cost savings, which is not really working anyway as the engine manufacturers and teams will simply have to spend the millions in a shorter time frame (between the seasons).
So how about reverting this rule change to what it was before? Nothing wrong with that, is there?

The point about intra season changes is having to roll out a new engine to the customer teams each time there is an update. Its not like MS windows where they make the update available online just like that.

A team with 3 customers is looking at 18 engines. If there is one window of developemnt thats 18 new engines. If its constant change, you could be looking at 180 engines. So next to avoid that we need to limit when new releases come out, thats what the teams ALL got together to decide and guess what

the decision was Once a year - i.e 18 engines for their custonmer income, if its 180 engines , who thinks the customers can pay the agreed yearly fee x 7 or 8 times

Or who thinks updates to engines will always be parts that dont cost a penny to replace and dont impact other parts of the engine, _ i mean if that was the case like Ferrari imply - then why the hell didnt they think of it in the first place

Nope we are all the victimes of an expensive PR campaign by the losers ferrar+RBR - The FOTA killers who have run riot for long enough and are now finding out what happens when the really big boys come out to play