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[CookinFlat6]

the F1 boss let slip they are spending 50-60 on them, with development???

which boss? customer boss? works team boss? or manufacturer boss? - I am sure most agree this is important info if you sweeping yet meaningless statement is to contribute anything

FI boss.

Actually, my bad, it was the Lotus owner, Lopez, but it's the same point.

The fact is that the new engine, which from a technology perspective is a great thing, the costs were passed on to all the teams.
In our case this year, between the engine and development we probably spent something like US$50-60 million. That’s not cost cutting in our books, that’s essentially throwing money out the window.

I was just highlighting buying an engine isn't apparently the end of the expense, not whether it was good or bad.

But roth, you contradicted your own point that Renault wasn't most expensive because they all had hidden costs - you just quoted a team owner explaining how expensive the Renault engines were as the dev costs had been passed on, - and that was why he moved to the less expensive Merc engine where they are on target to recoup their costs make a profit while providing the best engine to the most satisfied customers

What was the point in contradicting the already proven facts that Merc engines are way cheaper than Renaults? Then quoting a guy who is moving from the expensive to the cheaper and claiming this shows its not just about the base line cost

Also you do know that when he says he spent 60 mill on engine AND development doesnt mean the engine development (he is not a manfacturer) but his own cars development right??? right???

[Roth]

The fact is that the new engine, which from a technology perspective is a great thing, the costs were passed on to all the teams.
In our case this year, between the engine and development we probably spent something like US$50-60 million. That’s not cost cutting in our books, that’s essentially throwing money out the window.

I was just highlighting buying an engine isn't apparently the end of the expense, not whether it was good or bad.

this quote is unclear

Does Lopez mean the development of the engine or development of the car ?

if its all engine, maybe explains why they have dumped Renault in favour of Mercedes

I thought it was bit ambiguous too, but it's right in the middle of him talking specifically about engine cost.

Here's the link.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/11/i ... boil-over/

If he's talking about engines it brings into question what they are paying (and there are various figures floating around) and what teams are having to do above and beyond simply buying the PU. With Lotus having one of the larger budgets (if it's possible to nail these things down) I assume he is talking about engines because that figure alone would swamp the smaller teams.

[Roth]

But roth, you contradicted your own point that Renault wasn't most expensive because they all had hidden costs - you just quoted a team owner explaining how expensive the Renault engines were as the dev costs had been passed on, - and that was why he moved to the less expensive Merc engine where they are on target to recoup their costs make a profit while providing the best engine to the most satisfied customers

What was the point in contradicting the already proven facts that Merc engines are way cheaper than Renaults? Then quoting a guy who is moving from the expensive to the cheaper and claiming this shows its not just about the base line cost

Read, cookie. I said the same applies for all teams, because if we weren't aware of it till he mentioned it and all the smaller teams are struggling, it maybe safe to assume these unconfirmed $20-30m figures aren't entirely accurate.

[CookinFlat6]

But roth, you contradicted your own point that Renault wasn't most expensive because they all had hidden costs - you just quoted a team owner explaining how expensive the Renault engines were as the dev costs had been passed on, - and that was why he moved to the less expensive Merc engine where they are on target to recoup their costs make a profit while providing the best engine to the most satisfied customers

What was the point in contradicting the already proven facts that Merc engines are way cheaper than Renaults? Then quoting a guy who is moving from the expensive to the cheaper and claiming this shows its not just about the base line cost

Read, cookie. I said the same applies for all teams, because if we weren't aware of it till he mentioned it and all the smaller teams are struggling, it maybe safe to assume these unconfirmed $20-30m figures aren't entirely accurate.

Maybe YOU are not aware of it - because you have disputed the quoted engine costs without been aware of what they are. Some of us already know the numbers and we have posted them and their sources. Yet you say they are wrong because Lopez says he spends 60 on engines PLUS on his car

And the baseline costs of these engines is a lot different to the actual cost. The FI boss let slip that they are spending from $50-60m a year on them, with development and everything else. I imagine a lot depends on what data or source code Merc supply with that.

I don't know how that particular figure differs from last year, but it's a lot over and above the figures we've been hearing from this year. It's overly simplistic to say Merc produce the cheapest engine, without knowing exactly what is offered for that price; same goes for Renault and Ferrari.

We know what is offered for the price, PU+fuel+transmission+service is the engine deal - i.e what a team needs to spend for each engine manufacturer they pick

You need to learn to simply say 'I was wrong' instead of drag things out, have a look at this then make your final response

Talking around the paddock, it seems that Renault is the most expensive option at the moment. This make sense given that everything in France costs more than elsewhere because of the country’s employment laws and social charges (eh bah!). The price tag I hear for Renault is, ahem, $28.5 million for the engine. To this one must add the transmission (which Red Bull will do for you if you write them a cheque for $9 million) and you need to purchase the right lubricants for the engine from Total ($2 million more). Thus, without needing a pocket calculator, one can surmise that a Renault deal engine will cost you the best part of $40 million. Geez!

Ferrari seems to be the next best/worst offer with the suggestion being that you get the back end of the current prancing horse for a sniff under $30 million, when one adds in the transmission, service and yadda yadda.

Up in Brixworth, however, you can order the Menu du Jour, service included, for $24.4 million. That will include a little supplement for Petronas but from what I hear this is simply a deal to run Malaysian Jazeman Jaafar in a limited number of free practice sessions on Fridays. All in, the figure is believed to be around $26 million.

So, you want to be more competitive and spend less money? What do you choose?

Ferrari at $30 million. Maaa…

Renault at $40 million. Yougottabekiddinme…

Mercedes at $26 million. Ker-Ching!

Uh-duh…

[What's Burning?]

it takes a big man or woman to admit when they're factually incorrect. it's much easier to redefine the argument than it is to claim you're a fool or a troll or bitter or blind or obstinate or...

[Roth]

I'm aware of Saward's alleged costing, that's why I wondered if there's more to it than simply that price. You have Saward the journalist with his conjecture, which are the only figures used around here but let's use them as a baseline anyway, and Lopez the team owner, and you're taking Saward's word as gospel, and Lopez's as indicative of nothing more than how he runs his team because it, what, is wildly different from how anyone else runs a team? Supposing they are both right, what is Lotus spending the extra millions on that the others aren't?

And are Saward's figures your 'proven facts'? Because when things start with 'I hear' it's pretty shaky ground for a 'proven fact'.

[What's Burning?]

So we have to prove our prices but you can generalize about yours? There's been more than one source on pricing breakdown throughout the season. Lotus is switching to Mercedes power willingly, I'm sure to them the cost benefit is simply a peripheral benefit, what they're really looking after is the performance gain, but hey in this case we have sources and you have read between the lines assumptions... so your point must be correct.

[CookinFlat6]

Roth knows a lot about F1

[CookinFlat6]

Supposing they are both right, what is Lotus spending the extra millions on that the others aren't?

And are Saward's figures your 'proven facts'? Because when things start with 'I hear' it's pretty shaky ground for a 'proven fact'.

nice try, you are 'aware' of Sawards but you blindly accept that Lopez would pay 60 mill for an engine and 'hidden costs' that would mean Merc engines also cost 60 mill with thier hidden costs and all 3 are around the same????

Sawards figures are confirmed by various sources, including James Allen

Lopez had a Renault engine deal - he now has a Merc deal, therefore when added to the (undisputed) cost numbers in the public domain, and his own comments, we can logically conclude that he didnt move to a NET more expensive engine deal ergo the Renault engine deal (with whatever it comes with) is more expensive than the Merc deal (and whatever it comes with)

Just to show the fallacy in an argument that says the Merc and Renault engines are likely to be equal in price due to other tangible or non tangible costs, see if you know the answer to this - A Renault car that costs 10,000 Euros and has a certain performance vs the same model Renault car with enhanced performance -- which costs more at your local showroom????

So the argument of Renault costing the same as the Merc despite all the evidence listed is inherently flawed as the Merc should cost more for the better performance that Lopez would get

now even you surely dont think Lopez would choose an engine that was more expensive with less performance if he had a choice???[/quote]

Now lets deal with something more alarming

Supposing they are both right, what is Lotus spending the extra millions on that the others aren't?

You think Lopez alone is spending 60 mill on his Renault engines? but he was clear in saying 'we customers'
And its clear to anyone he is talking about 60 mill on engines AND car - probably the 2014 reg car - this is really not rocket science to infer
anyway - say he is really saying the Renault engine cost him 60 mill - that would be the same for Caterham right?

[CookinFlat6]

For those interested in the truth as opposed to their own cursory 'not yet researched, although readily argued' assumptions
This is from before the season and are projections. We know some teams spent more in the end and of course that extra spend has to passed on somewhere. (interestingly those who had to overspend out of panic are also those who would recently have us believe they wanted more time in 2015 to spend even more than they expected in 2014, after having done the same in 2013

Formula One teams face a massive 150 per cent hike in the cost of their 2014 engine supply when the sport switches to turbo-charged V6 power units.
At present, engine supply to customer teams is capped at £7 million per season. However come next year, that cap won't exist, allowing suppliers to charge whatever they want.
Renault - which is charging the most next year - is asking its customers to cough up £18 million (€21m, $27m) per season. That does however include the entire power-unit consisting of the engine, turbo, ERS unit and batteries.
Bernie Ecclestone is keen to see this reduced. He will meet with Renault CEO Carlos Ghosn to discuss the matter.
Mercedes and Ferrari are cheaper options at £14 million (€16.5m, $21m) and £12.5 million (€14.7m, $19m) respectively - but they both remain almost double the current cost.
Whilst the cost hike is to be expected, it could be the final nail in the coffin for some smaller teams which are forced to rely on customer supply - unlike Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes, which all receive their engines for free.
A Renault engine supply for Caterham for example would make up almost 36 per cent of its total budget. As such, it's believed Williams are looking to switch from the French supplier to Mercedes for 2014 in a bid to reduce costs.
As such, McLaren will switch to Honda power in 2015 after the deadline to extend its Mercedes contract expired. It's expected that Honda's supply won't cost McLaren a penny, in return the Japanese company will get significant branding opportunities on the McLaren livery.

So this is a good place to start - the teams own initial projections and curomer brochure, and then extrapolate and then maybe look at Sawards numbers then look at Roths numbers that 60 mill is the cost equally for all teams

[Roth]

Where do I say they cost the same?

[What's Burning?]

Where do I say they cost the same?

that's the same thing you said about Lewis having a mental weakness.

[CookinFlat6]

Where do I say they cost the same?

And the baseline costs of these engines is a lot different to the actual cost.

It's overly simplistic to say Merc produce the cheapest engine, without knowing exactly what is offered for that price; same goes for Renault and Ferrari.

Ok, so you either mean its too simplistic to say Merc is cheaper than Renault because we dont understand the net effective cost, or you are saying its too simplistic to say Merc is cheapest because we rae wrong that merc is cheapest, meaning they either cost the same or that Merc is actually more expensive

we say they are cheaper - you say we dont know despite the numbers and facts offered to you, so they are not the same - thats now proven by Lopez, leaving the following;

roth says merc are more expensive than renault, but he didnt really say that we just dont understand him

[Roth]

Where do I say they cost the same?

And the baseline costs of these engines is a lot different to the actual cost.

It's overly simplistic to say Merc produce the cheapest engine, without knowing exactly what is offered for that price; same goes for Renault and Ferrari.

Ok, so you either mean its too simplistic to say Merc is cheaper than Renault because we dont understand the net effective cost, or you are saying its too simplistic to say Merc is cheapest because we rae wrong that merc is cheapest, meaning they either cost the same or that Merc is actually more expensive

we say they are cheaper - you say we dont know despite the numbers and facts offered to you, so they are not the same - thats now proven by Lopez, leaving the following;

roth says merc are more expensive than renault, but he didnt really say that we just dont understand him

I don't care how much each engine costs, it's not about who charges what, but, as you've finally cottoned on, what are the real cost of engines that conjecturing journalists think, which is likely a false benchmark, and the real cost that a team owner says, and the discrepancy between them.

And you claiming I state Merc is more expensive than Renault (like it matters) is just a falsehood, which like so many of your mistakes is your inability to marry what's been said to what you've interpreted, and at any point refusing to change that original mistake.

[CookinFlat6]

Okaaay Roth you didnt say anything about something you dont understand, Lopez spends 60 mill on the engine and on developing it further with go faster stripes