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[overboost]

I heard him say that in an interview during practice. He talks rubbish. v8's one day, twin turbos for more noise another day. No ones bothered about the noise, that was a red herring by Bernie and the racings great. And the most sickening is the pretence by Horner that he's bothered about other teams, does he think everyone's turned stupid all of a sudden?

I listened to that interview as well. I think you are overreacting a little bit.

He wants to go with a more standard twin turbo setup and standardized parts but keeping the new block, all to try and strip out $ from this un-affordable engine. And as a by product we get the real engine sounds back, a great selling feature to the spectators and the promoters I think.

But according to Horner F1 will likely have to endure another frozen Mercedes domination year in 2015 but come 2016 there will be a move to the more open and sustainable engine formula. These engines are just too expensive and the racing to predictable in a time where money is drying up. Even the drivers are now worried about the show and want a say in how to improve things, http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116868.

A good plan imo but it will take too long to implement due to Merc, potentially another lost year unless Renault and Ferrari can do the seemingly impossible and break through the ice to close the gap.

[What's Burning?]

Renault's engine is expensive. The most expensive. Mercedes' engine is cheap by comparison. 40 million for Renault, to 26 million for Mercedes. It's a Renault problem, not a regulation problem if you as me, yes?

I know you pretend not to look at contradicting facts when stating your opinions on things, but your opinions hold as much water as a gauze coffee filter.

BTW that link, the drivers want to improve the show buy having UFOs land at GP events. It doesn't say that, but that's what I think they're going to discuss because no where does it mention them discussing the engines being too expensive. You're looking very desperate at the moment OB, but don't worry you're still invited to the Lewis Hamilton 2nd WDC after party celebrations.

[overboost]

Renault's engine is expensive. The most expensive. Mercedes' engine is cheap by comparison. 40 million for Renault, to 26 million for Mercedes. It's a Renault problem, not a regulation problem if you as me, yes?

I know you pretend not to look at contradicting facts when stating your opinions on things, but your opinions hold as much water as a gauze coffee filter.

BTW that link, the drivers want to improve the show buy having UFOs land at GP events. It doesn't say that, but that's what I think they're going to discuss because no where does it mention them discussing the engines being too expensive. You're looking very desperate at the moment OB, but don't worry you're still invited to the Lewis Hamilton 2nd WDC after party celebrations.

I mean that the new Turbo V6's are much more expensive than the engines that they replaced. Is this not so?

[What's Burning?]

Renault's engine is expensive. The most expensive. Mercedes' engine is cheap by comparison. 40 million for Renault, to 26 million for Mercedes. It's a Renault problem, not a regulation problem if you as me, yes?

I know you pretend not to look at contradicting facts when stating your opinions on things, but your opinions hold as much water as a gauze coffee filter.

BTW that link, the drivers want to improve the show buy having UFOs land at GP events. It doesn't say that, but that's what I think they're going to discuss because no where does it mention them discussing the engines being too expensive. You're looking very desperate at the moment OB, but don't worry you're still invited to the Lewis Hamilton 2nd WDC after party celebrations.

I mean that the new Turbo V6's are much more expensive than the engines that they replaced. Is this not so?

So why doesn't Renault sell their engines for 26 million? BTW, there is zero restrictions for development throughout the year to make engines cheaper to produce or for reliability. So there's nothing stopping them from doing that... yes?

[overboost]

Renault's engine is expensive. The most expensive. Mercedes' engine is cheap by comparison. 40 million for Renault, to 26 million for Mercedes. It's a Renault problem, not a regulation problem if you as me, yes?

I know you pretend not to look at contradicting facts when stating your opinions on things, but your opinions hold as much water as a gauze coffee filter.

BTW that link, the drivers want to improve the show buy having UFOs land at GP events. It doesn't say that, but that's what I think they're going to discuss because no where does it mention them discussing the engines being too expensive. You're looking very desperate at the moment OB, but don't worry you're still invited to the Lewis Hamilton 2nd WDC after party celebrations.

I mean that the new Turbo V6's are much more expensive than the engines that they replaced. Is this not so?

So why doesn't Renault sell their engines for 26 million? BTW, there is zero restrictions for development throughout the year to make engines cheaper to produce or for reliability. So there's nothing stopping them from doing that... yes?

I don't think you understand what I am saying. Last season the engines I think were about $15-20M? cheaper for a team as compared to the new Turbo V6's.

This has brought more cost into F1 and is putting much stress on the smaller teams. These are the extra costs that I am referring to, not the price differences between engines this year.

As for building them cheaper, the engines as a demonstration tool for hybrid technology are just very expensive to design, build and with expensive materials required to handle all the excessive heat that is generated. Horner is saying that a new set of rules is needed to be able to build them cheaper, that is how I understand it.

[What's Burning?]

I do understand. You do the math, Mercedes is selling their class leading Turbo V6 PU for the same price that Renault was charging for their V8's last year. Yes, I do understand, so I'll ask again, why is it that Renault can't make an engine that they can sell to their customers for 26 million like Mercedes does?

I know you have your opinon and agenda and it's okay, I understand what it's like to have your favorite team/driver be struggling. But that is the fault of the team/drive it's not a problme with Mercedes, it's not a problem with the regulations, it's not a problem with the sport, but you keep insisting that it is when it really isn't. Certainly if by looking at Mercedes every point you make can be easily dismissed.

[overboost]

I do understand. You do the math, Mercedes is selling their class leading Turbo V6 PU for the same price that Renault was charging for their V8's last year. Yes, I do understand, so I'll ask again, why is it that Renault can't make an engine that they can sell to their customers for 26 million like Mercedes does?

I know you have your opinon and agenda and it's okay, I understand what it's like to have your favorite team/driver be struggling. But that is the fault of the team/drive it's not a problme with Mercedes, it's not a problem with the regulations, it's not a problem with the sport, but you keep insisting that it is when it really isn't. Certainly if by looking at Mercedes every point you make can be easily dismissed.

Are you sure your figures are correct, for example Sauber was paying about $10M for their Ferrari engines last season.

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/ ... expensive/

Also here is a Patrick Head quote on what is possible for even less money:

“You could produce 800hp for 2 million euros a team each year. I think the teams are having to pay about 10 times that amount. “It’s a very expensive way of powering Formula One cars.”

The regs are causing the expense which are a problem for the sport!

http://www.formula1blog.com/f1-news/pat ... expensive/

[Roth]

And the baseline costs of these engines is a lot different to the actual cost. The FI boss let slip that they are spending from $50-60m a year on them, with development and everything else. I imagine a lot depends on what data or source code Merc supply with that.

I don't know how that particular figure differs from last year, but it's a lot over and above the figures we've been hearing from this year. It's overly simplistic to say Merc produce the cheapest engine, without knowing exactly what is offered for that price; same goes for Renault and Ferrari.

[CookinFlat6]

And the baseline costs of these engines is a lot different to the actual cost. The FI boss let slip that they are spending from $50-60m a year on them, with development and everything else. I imagine a lot depends on what data or source code Merc supply with that.

I don't know how that particular figure differs from last year, but it's a lot over and above the figures we've been hearing from this year. It's overly simplistic to say Merc produce the cheapest engine, without knowing exactly what is offered for that price; same goes for Renault and Ferrari.

Despite several links to engine facts that you obviously cant read, you (and a couple others on here) confuse the manufacturer, his customers and his works team

the F1 boss let slip they are spending 50-60 on them, with development???

which boss? customer boss? works team boss? or manufacturer boss? - I am sure most agree this is important info if you sweeping yet meaningless statement is to contribute anything

The manufacturers build and develop the engines, thats a massive cost compared to the old established V8s that could be knocked out off an established line (because the development costs have since been absorbed)
So the V6s were expensive to develop and some manufacturers are passing on that cost to customers to try and recoup the costs as quickly as possible - thats Renault, Honda have said they will not for example so theirs will be much cheaper, Merc have a plan that is on target, they have the right amount of customers and they have pitched the priice at the optimum point on the slope between recouping costs/making a profit and having willing customers

Ferrari and Renault have got it horribly wrong, no planning, too greedy, in Renaults case they saw it as a business, didnt spend enough and want thier money back too soon, now they have no customers apart from the works team, and ofcourse the idea of qworks team is they dont really pay for engines, so Rennauklt are seruiously fkd.
Hence horny Spice chnaging the PR agenda now for engines with parts Renault already mass produce

And the less alert F1 fans lap it up without think this - WHERE IS THE INNOVATION AND DEVELOPMENT THEY WERE CRYING ABOUT WHEN DUMBING DOWN THE STATE OF ART HYBRID FOR OLD TECHNOLOGY?

no answers

[stonemonkey]

He wants to go with a more standard twin turbo setup and standardized parts but keeping the new block

Which is something he knows merc couldnt do with their block.

At least not without quite a bit of work and probably some compromises.

[Ferrari man 009]

You're looking very desperate at the moment OB, but don't worry you're still invited to the Lewis Hamilton 2nd WDC after party celebrations.

What? You think Rosberg will win the title and Hamilton will celebrate being 2nd???

[What's Burning?]

You're looking very desperate at the moment OB, but don't worry you're still invited to the Lewis Hamilton 2nd WDC after party celebrations.

What? You think Rosberg will win the title and Hamilton will celebrate being 2nd???

It would be funny if that's what it said.

[Roth]

the F1 boss let slip they are spending 50-60 on them, with development???

which boss? customer boss? works team boss? or manufacturer boss? - I am sure most agree this is important info if you sweeping yet meaningless statement is to contribute anything

FI boss.

Actually, my bad, it was the Lotus owner, Lopez, but it's the same point.

The fact is that the new engine, which from a technology perspective is a great thing, the costs were passed on to all the teams.
In our case this year, between the engine and development we probably spent something like US$50-60 million. That’s not cost cutting in our books, that’s essentially throwing money out the window.

I was just highlighting buying an engine isn't apparently the end of the expense, not whether it was good or bad.

[What's Burning?]

So instead of complaining about how expensive they are and how they can't spend even more money to make them perform better, why aren't they focusing on development to make them cheaper. That's allowed you know.

No one seems to be asking that question.

[Ichabod]

The fact is that the new engine, which from a technology perspective is a great thing, the costs were passed on to all the teams.
In our case this year, between the engine and development we probably spent something like US$50-60 million. That’s not cost cutting in our books, that’s essentially throwing money out the window.

I was just highlighting buying an engine isn't apparently the end of the expense, not whether it was good or bad.

this quote is unclear

Does Lopez mean the development of the engine or development of the car ?

if its all engine, maybe explains why they have dumped Renault in favour of Mercedes